Looking for a good vintage RF

[Sonnar Brian]

The Konica S2 parallax correction also changes Field of View for distance. That, and the Zeiss finder on the Polaroid 250/350/360/450/180/190- are the few that have that feature,

 

[wlewisiii]

Thanks so much for the reply guys ! I am looking for one with leaf shutter and can work without a battery, so some of the recommendations do not fit into that, but I know they are all great cameras. I wanted a leaf shutter camera becoz my Sovet ones got leak on the cloth curtain, and my photos got fogged, so that even Leica will have that problem sooner or later, the same reason I don’t want a bellow camera. The reason I do not want an automatic model is that electronic devices produced over 30yrs. ago will probably start to fail today, even if they still work it will take some re-adjustment, so that I would rather go with an external meter like those hotshoe mounted ones. Btw I am primarily a Pentax shooter, I like everything about it except one thing, their film cameras were mostly made with cloth curtain shutter that made me worry ! Pentax has just restarted film camera production, I do hope they will come up with a RF !

They've never made a rangefinder in the past so I doubt they'd start now. The only ones making RF's at the moment are Leica and Pixii.

 

[splitimageview]

One thing that I want to note on parallax compensation, having used a lot of rangefinder cameras with them and without them, is that it's still very much an approximate framing device.

A good point. Although nice to have, for me it's moved pretty far down on list of important features.

After owning most of the 60-70s fixed lens RFs, including the Vivitar 35ES, the Olympus 35SP, RD, RC, Minolta 7SII, Konica S2 and S3, multiple Canonets, and a few more I've forgotten (Ricoh and others), I ultimately settled on the Konica Auto S3, although I still have the S2 which was my first 35mm camera, acquired back in the mid 70s...and it still works. 🙂

The S3 doesn't have parallax correction, it doesn't have speeds down to 1s, and it's shutter priority.

All of these were negatives 'on paper' when I first started looking at this genre, but ultimately I found that I never needed slow speeds, auto parallax never was a factor with the 38mm lens and the fixed framelines, and with practice it became second nature to simply adjust the shutter speed in order to pick my preferred aperture---voila, a virtual aperture priority S3.

The great lens and light weight were bonuses, and my copy has a beautiful viewfinder and super contrasty RF patch, so it's quite easy to focus.

The QL17 GIII was my second choice, build quality is unmatched in this group, and close focus beats pretty much everything else (0.8m.)

 

[lotech]

Since already many great suggestions have been given I don't have much to add there.

One thing that I want to note on parallax compensation, having used a lot of rangefinder cameras with them and without them, is that it's still very much an approximate framing device. For once due to parallax (the viewfinder being offset to the lens) it does not work for objects that are near you. So, even though the frame-line move to compensate for closer focus it still presents a "best guess" as to what will be included in the picture and does not guarantee that what's outside of the frameline does not end up in the picture and vice versa. This is true even for the "mythical" Leicas.

Then adding to the inaccuracies there is also shrinkage, all lenses will actually change in focal length as it is focused closer throwing off the framelines as well. The only rangefinder camera that I know of that tries to account for focal length changes/shrinkage is the Fuji GW690 series.

Parallax corrected framelines will also not save you from stupid gotchas such as shooting through a fence and forgetting to move sideways, or having a wall that is under you show up in the frame because unlike the viewfinder, the lens does indeed "see" it... been there done that...

Basically if you need absolutely dead-on accurate framing, nothing will match a single lens reflex. If you don't need that I would not make parallax correction the deciding factor, for example my main cameras do not even have static framelines - just a peep-hole, but having shot with them for long enough I have a very good idea about what will end up in the picture and what won't.

Thanks, I see what you mean. The first time I noticed the framing problem with non SLR was when I was shooting with a P&S at close range, the subject almost completely disappeared in the photo. Then later I watched a random YT review of the Konica IIIA to learn that it was one of the best RF with parallax compensation even Leica lacked, so I only looked for RF with such features. Btw, I am also interested in shooting medium format, and I learned that some TLR also have parallax compensation, I believe they also have the same limitation, so that I will keep in mind to shoot a little 'wider' to ensure to cover everything I want to include.

 

[lotech]

Btw, if purely for the look I like the Konica IIA best. The IIA does not have the same great RF system on later models, but it has the classical look I loved so much, it's like the Soviet FED 2 that I have, which is a Leica copy. The best of all the IIA has a 10 blade aperture that was not well known. On the other hand there's one feature missing on most vintage RF beside Soviet ones, which is the built-in diopter adjustment on the eye piece, despite it being primitive on the FED it's good to have but not essential, I can still focus without wearing glasses by overlapping the focusing patch.

 

[TenEleven]

Just worthy of note that the Konica IIA - while it is an excellent camera (I shot it's modern sibling which shares the lens and finder - the III for a while) with a fit and finish that's rare to see - especially so for a fixed lens compact, the finder is very much a 1950ies finder. No framelines, no parallax marks, just a peep-hole with a (decent) rangefinder patch. Also a light camera this sure isn't 700-800 grams is what my III weighted if memory serves. Also no strap lugs is another consideration.

The 48/2 Hexanon on the IIA is no slouch, fully usable from wide open. Great lens.

 

[Cascadilla]

With regard to cloth shutters and Pentax--your Pentax cameras will be SLRs, so the mirror will block the light from getting to the shutter, unlike an RF which has nothing between the lens and the shutter. I've been using Pentax cameras since the mid 1970's and have never had an issue with a shutter curtain developing a light leak. I grant you that Leicas and other RFs with cloth curtains can have that problem--I had to have a shutter curtain replaced on an M3 that I owned for while before selling it to finance a 90 mm wide angle for my 4x5.

 

[lotech]

With regard to cloth shutters and Pentax--your Pentax cameras will be SLRs, so the mirror will block the light from getting to the shutter, unlike an RF which has nothing between the lens and the shutter. I've been using Pentax cameras since the mid 1970's and have never had an issue with a shutter curtain developing a light leak. I grant you that Leicas and other RFs with cloth curtains can have that problem--I had to have a shutter curtain replaced on an M3 that I owned for while before selling it to finance a 90 mm wide angle for my 4x5.

Yes, you are right.

 

[lotech]

I just came across some YT reviews on vintage Voigtlander rangefinders, that's another goody beside the Retina I forgot, any comment on that ?

​

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Thanks so much for the reply guys ! I am looking for one with leaf shutter and can work without a battery, so some of the recommendations do not fit into that, but I know they are all great cameras. I wanted a leaf shutter camera becoz my Sovet ones got leak on the cloth curtain, and my photos got fogged, so that even Leica will have that problem sooner or later, the same reason I don’t want a bellow camera. The reason I do not want an automatic model is that electronic devices produced over 30yrs. ago will probably start to fail today, even if they still work it will take some re-adjustment, so that I would rather go with an external meter like those hotshoe mounted ones. Btw I am primarily a Pentax shooter, I like everything about it except one thing, their film cameras were mostly made with cloth curtain shutter that made me worry ! Pentax has just restarted film camera production, I do hope they will come up with a RF !

Curtains are replaceable. Comparing to FSU (junk materials and build), Leica curtains, light buffle seal will last longer than you will be around. I had M3 DS ELC, made in fifties, original factory seal. No light leaks. New curtains and seal are available as quality product, not as Zenit old stock from eighties curtains.

RF is even more complicated than SLR's mirror. Pentax could only make P&S now. Do not expect miracle to happen. They are charging ridiculous price for just a viewfinder. RF will cost much more, since Cosina most likely already destroyed their Bessa production, which was source for not to pricy RF blocks.

 

[lotech]

Curtains are replaceable. Comparing to FSU (junk materials and build), Leica curtains, light buffle seal will last longer than you will be around. I had M3 DS ELC, made in fifties, original factory seal. No light leaks. New curtains and seal are available as quality product, not as Zenit old stock from eighties curtains.

RF is even more complicated than SLR's mirror. Pentax could only make P&S now. Do not expect miracle to happen. They are charging ridiculous price for just a viewfinder. RF will cost much more, since Cosina most likely already destroyed their Bessa production, which was source for not to pricy RF blocks.

Yes the "17" is crazily expensive, and I dun want it even for free. Pentax is one of the oldest brands with a long history in making film cameras, I just thought if new film cameras were to be reintroduced it must be something uncommon from the company.

 

[Cascadilla]

Yes the "17" is crazily expensive, and I dun want it even for free. Pentax is one of the oldest brands with a long history in making film cameras, I just thought if new film cameras were to be reintroduced it must be something uncommon from the company.

I was also hoping for more with the Pentax 17, but I understand that they are trying to market to young people and not older and experienced photographers like most of the people on this forum. My hope is that if it sells well that Pentax will make other and more sophisticated film cameras in the future, and that other manufacturers might jump in as well.

 

[Richard G]

I’m curious about such a particular feature set. What will you use the leaf shutter rangefinder for?

 

[lotech]

I was also hoping for more with the Pentax 17, but I understand that they are trying to market to young people and not older and experienced photographers like most of the people on this forum. My hope is that if it sells well that Pentax will make other and more sophisticated film cameras in the future, and that other manufacturers might jump in as well.

As far as I understand Pentax is planning for more film cameras, please check the Pentaxforum or YouTube for the announcement. And I learn that Rollie is rolling out an AF model after the "35", but I've no interest on that. I believe most "old timers" have little interest on automatic models but enjoy the arts of mechanics

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Yes the "17" is crazily expensive, and I dun want it even for free. Pentax is one of the oldest brands with a long history in making film cameras, I just thought if new film cameras were to be reintroduced it must be something uncommon from the company.

It looks like you didn't subscribed to their YT channel. In one of the first "17" videos and via web, they addmited of having no knowledge left for film cameras. They contacted older people to get explained how film advance mechanism works. The reality is if even they have all of the documents, nobody knew how to make it, except some oldest, not with company anymore. This is common corporate practice. One of the manufacturers I worked for has to ask some older customers how equipment they sold and not made anymore works.

 

[lotech]

It looks like you didn't subscribed to their YT channel. In one of the first "17" videos and via web, they addmited of having no knowledge left for film cameras. They contacted older people to get explained how film advance mechanism works. The reality is if even they have all of the documents, nobody knew how to make it, except some oldest, not with company anymore. This is common corporate practice. One of the manufacturers I worked for has to ask some older customers how equipment they sold and not made anymore works.

No I did not follow their YT channel, but I'm long time member of their forum. Do they need reverse engineering to get to know how a film camera works ? I think at least it is much easier for them than a relatively "new" camera company like Sony to produce a new film camera.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

No I did not follow their YT channel, but I'm long time member of their forum. Do they need reverse engineering to get to know how a film camera works ? I think at least it is much easier for them than a relatively "new" camera company like Sony to produce a new film camera.

Sony has surpassed almost all old names in most used cameras a.k.a. mirrorless. If where would be real market for film, they are technically as good as Pentax. It is ground zero in both cases. But with film been down to the niche, it is good project for Pentax as niche manufacturer. It is nice to have Pentax still kicking around.

 

[lotech]

Sony has surpassed almost all old names in most used cameras a.k.a. mirrorless. If where would be real market for film, they are technically as good as Pentax. It is ground zero in both cases. But with film been down to the niche, it is good project for Pentax as niche manufacturer. It is nice to have Pentax still kicking around.

Yes Sony is very advanced in digital camera design, and provides sensors to most of the digital camera manufacturers, but it relied on Konica/Minolta to produce their first "practical" DSLR, coz it has no previous experience in that area. Sony also partnered with Zeiss to produce their lenses, just like Microsoft with Adobe…etc. Unlike all other "real" camera companies that are deeply rooted in photography, so I don't think Sony can do better than Pentax if it were to produce a film camera with complex mechanical parts. And since new Pentax designers “lose track” on how to produce a film camera, it's a new start for them, so they may come up with something totally different ever in Pentax history. The problem is Pentax is too small a company in the photography business can barely survive today, luckily Ricoh which is the big boss behind is also rooted in photography, so there's still hope for them. And while developing the new K3 Pentax stated that they will stick with DSLR instead of mirrorless, that's shocking like killing themselves quicker, they even came up with the “17” and created quite a stir where others followed suit ! I always compare Pentax with Olympus, both have similar history in photography, and both OM and Ricoh produced RF in the pass….Sorry I go offtopic too much !

 

[lotech]

I’m curious about such a particular feature set. What will you use the leaf shutter rangefinder for?

I am just curious and want to play with it ! I don't have any leaf shutter camera beside P&S, and bcoz I don't trust cloth curtain shutter, so I give leaf shutter a try. And btw, when searching for a good vintage RF I came across the Retina IIS, I like it more than the IIIS bcoz it has a wider lens. I don't need changeable lenses but a capable film camera for casual walk around shooting, if I want more I can use my Pentax SLR. There is something I am not sure about the IIS, does it have automatic parallax correction built in ? I mean moving frameline during focus. I got mixed results when searching for an answer, since Retina is the high end series I believe and I hope it has that feature. Another thing is, it has a meter coupled exposure system locked to the EV, and can be calibrated with the turning wheel below the lens, but what if the meter failed, can I still use the wheel to adjust the exposure with a light meter ? or to release the EV lock to adjust shutter and aperture independently ?

 

[Hcompton79]

The IIIS can use the same 45mm f/2.8 xenar as the IIs, as well as 28, 30, 35, 50, 85 and 135mm lenses. (although the DKL mount 45mm f/2.8 xenar was designed for the Instamatic reflex and does not couple to the rangefinder in the IIIS. In my experience, the 50mm f/2.8 Xenar is a superior performer, but that is based on my sample size of one each). The 35mm f/2.8 Curtagon is also a lovely 5 element design lens.

The IIS does not have parallax adjusting framelines, it has projected framelines, but just with parallax correcting marks visible in the frame. The IIS is reputably more difficult to service than the IIIs, because while it has a simpler RF/VF system, it's compressed into the smaller retinette sized body.

Both the IIS, IIIS and Retina Reflex S, III and IV models use an EV lock system without any EV numbers essentially. The two knurled knobs around the lens mount adjust the shutter speed, but couple the aperture to it to keep consistent exposure. So when the shutter speed gets faster the aperture gets wider and vice versa. The wheel on the bottom adjusts only the aperture unless you hit the end range, in which case it will then bump the shutter speed one click.

So basically, if you want to use it by ignoring the meter you can, you just need to set the shutter speed first using the winged knobs and then set the aperture with the wheel. There's no way to disable this system without significantly modifying the camera.