Looking to step into the rangefinder world.. any advice is welcome!

[jrm27]

Hello all,

Here is another "what should my first rangefinder be?" post. But, this world is very new to me and I welcome all input as I'm researching.

First, I am not new to photography. I started on film in the mid 90's with a Minolta SRT101 that I absolutely loved. I shot that for about a decade before I moved to digital and worked my way through many a Canon. Currently, I am shooting an R6 that is fantastic. I love shooting digital for many reasons, but I severely miss shooting on film. So, I'm looking for a camera to add that won't be my primary camera, but will bring back the joy and intentionality of shooting film.

As a canon shooter I've been very interested int he QL17/19 (probably mostly out of brand loyalty and that slick film loading system.) I've also seen some interesting work out of the Minolta HiMatic 7 series (again, nostalgic brand loyalty). But, I'm looking for something small and unobtrusive that I can take traveling with me. Fixed lens is fine as I'm not looking for assembling another stable of lenses (yet). I'm comfortable shooting full manual, but I wouldn't mind a half decent light meter in camera that can point me in the right direction. This would mostly be for travel, around town, fun personal photo work.. nothing professional or super "clandestine street photography" needed. Hoping to not break the bank as well.

Are there other options I should be looking at? And, where? Ebay seems SUPER sketchy... and my local shops are not overflowing with old ilm rangefinders 😉

Thanks for the patience and any guidance you might give! I'm digging through these forums all the time, so I apologize if I'm missing things. Please feel free to point me to a different thread or forum if that is best. Thanks all!

-jrm

 

[Cascadilla]

The heyday for fixed lens RF cameras with a light meter was the 1950's through the early 1970's. There will be issues with the light meters for many of these cameras, such as dead selenium cells from earlier cameras and the need for substitutes for the mercury batteries that were standard into the 1970's but are no longer on the market. With many of these meters, the wrong battery will lead to erroneous meter readings. That said, many of these cameras from Canon, Minolta, Konica and others usually had very good lenses and are competent picture takers. If you decide that you really like rangefinders, you can then move on to Leica, Nikon, Contax, etc. with some great interchangeable lenses. I used a Minolta Hi Matic 9 many years ago that I was able to borrow when I was high school age, and it was a good camera although pretty large and heavy for what it did.

As for finding these cameras, look for eBay sellers with a lot of sales and a 98%+ favorable rating and someone who describes the camera accurately in their own words. If you see an obviously AI description, keep moving. Avoid anything listed as "untested" unless you are competent at repairing it yourself, since that is usually code for "I know it doesn't work." The manuals for most of these cameras can be found on the web so you can check out the size and weight, as well as any idiosyncrasies in loading, etc. Good luck, and post some pictures here when you find something.

 

[The Spastic Image]

Why not consider a Canon V, VI, or 7 RF camera and a Canon Leica Screw Mount lens of your choice. (35mm or 50mm).

 

[jrm27]

The heyday for fixed lens RF cameras with a light meter was the 1950's through the early 1970's. There will be issues with the light meters for many of these cameras, such as dead selenium cells from earlier cameras and the need for substitutes for the mercury batteries that were standard into the 1970's but are no longer on the market. With many of these meters, the wrong battery will lead to erroneous meter readings. That said, many of these cameras from Canon, Minolta, Konica and others usually had very good lenses and are competent picture takers. If you decide that you really like rangefinders, you can then move on to Leica, Nikon, Contax, etc. with some great interchangeable lenses. I used a Minolta Hi Matic 9 many years ago that I was able to borrow when I was high school age, and it was a good camera although pretty large and heavy for what it did.

As for finding these cameras, look for eBay sellers with a lot of sales and a 98%+ favorable rating and someone who describes the camera accurately in their own words. If you see an obviously AI description, keep moving. Avoid anything listed as "untested" unless you are competent at repairing it yourself, since that is usually code for "I know it doesn't work." The manuals for most of these cameras can be found on the web so you can check out the size and weight, as well as any idiosyncrasies in loading, etc. Good luck, and post some pictures here when you find something.

Thank you. I assumed that the light meters would be questionable at this point in their life cycles, but hopefully they'd be good enough to at least get me in close"ish". I've read that some are using modern batteries with different voltages and are compensating in their exposure calculations. But, hoping that actually works may just be wishful thinking. You make a good point that I haven't put too much thought into. Thanks for that. I appreciate the eBay advice too. I'm not too knowledgeable on opening up cameras and fixing them, so trying to find something reliable there might be a challenge!

Why not consider a Canon V, VI, or 7 RF camera and a Canon Leica Screw Mount lens of your choice. (35mm or 50mm).

Sounds like I have another group of cameras to look at! Thanks. I will say, the main reason I hd been looking at a fixed lenses was because it seemed like those cameras were all generally smaller than the interchangeable lens options. I'm also really wanting the film experience to be less about weighing which lenses to bring, which lens to grab for the day, do I need more lenses, would this look better on a 35mm, etc... and just grabbing and going. I realize that can be done with the others too... it just requires that I restrict myself to owning one lens, and that point the size difference of the body seems to be a factor. However, I'm going to check those out! Do you have a favorite among those?

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Canon P .
Less issues for stepping into RF by maintaining loyalty.
Lovely camera without questionable vintage electronics.

 

[Alpsman]

As soon as ya have a rangefinder with exchangeable lenses, you're in danger to buy exchangeable lenses. 😎

Also a question is, does it need to be a "classic rangefinder" or can it also be a "modern" point and shoot. Some of these are very useful everyday always with me cameras. They are also available with a fixfocus lens. They have lightmeter, sometimes autofokus, some can imprint the date and use batteries you can found in every shop.
For example, I am hooked on Nikon Rangefinders with a handful of lenses.
But my everyday, always & everywhere with me are two cheap point & shoot Nikon and Fuji), with autofokus, flash, motordrive, date imprint and a common battery. And if one of them breaks down - the cam is cheap. Meanwhile on one of them the battery cover isfixed with tape because the camera dropped about two meter - and it still works.

 

[BillBingham2]

Have to agree with Ko.Fe, the Canon P is a great solution. Another great option is the Nikon S2 and a 50/2, for my hands it was perfectly balance, but then I grew up on a Nikkormat FTn.

There are TONS of fixed lens RF that are all manual and are loads of fun. My favorite is the Konica III series (the ones without the stupid meter). Kodak had the Retina series that was wonderful too.

Meter wise take a look at a Sekonic 318 family, several hand attachments, one AA battery, perfect size and design. They made some great meters back in the day, the 318 is a great blend of size/function/price/robustness (digital).

 

[jrm27]

Canon P .
Less issues for stepping into RF by maintaining loyalty.
Lovely camera without questionable vintage electronics.

I wasn't aware of the Canon P! I'll take a look. Sounds like it could be a solid base to build on. Is it considerably larger than something like the QL17?

As soon as ya have a rangefinder with exchangeable lenses, you're in danger to buy exchangeable lenses. 😎

Also a question is, does it need to be a "classic rangefinder" or can it also be a "modern" point and shoot. Some of these are very useful everyday always with me cameras. They are also available with a fixfocus lens. They have lightmeter, sometimes autofokus, some can imprint the date and use batteries you can found in every shop.
For example, I am hooked on Nikon Rangefinders with a handful of lenses.
But my everyday, always & everywhere with me are two cheap point & shoot Nikon and Fuji), with autofokus, flash, motordrive, date imprint and a common battery. And if one of them breaks down - the cam is cheap. Meanwhile on one of them the battery cover isfixed with tape because the camera dropped about two meter - and it still works.

I'd rather stay away from point and shoot. I've got a digital point and shoot, which is fine.. but I miss the tactile control. But, that's a good world to explore! At this point, just perhaps not for me.

Have to agree with Ko.Fe, the Canon P is a great solution. Another great option is the Nikon S2 and a 50/2, for my hands it was perfectly balance, but then I grew up on a Nikkormat FTn.

There are TONS of fixed lens RF that are all manual and are loads of fun. My favorite is the Konica III series (the ones without the stupid meter). Kodak had the Retina series that was wonderful too.

Meter wise take a look at a Sekonic 318 family, several hand attachments, one AA battery, perfect size and design. They made some great meters back in the day, the 318 is a great blend of size/function/price/robustness (digital).

This is awesome info! I haven't really looked at any of these. I'll dig into those options as well. Such a breadth of options! Thank you.

 

[Sanug]

Fixed lens is fine as I'm not looking for assembling another stable of lenses (yet). I'm comfortable shooting full manual, but I wouldn't mind a half decent light meter in camera that can point me in the right direction. This would mostly be for travel, around town, fun personal photo work.. nothing professional or super "clandestine street photography" needed. Hoping to not break the bank as well.

For this purpose I would take a small manual scale focus camera into consideration: The famous Rollei 35. It is very well made, fully mechanical, with built-in light meter, great lenses, and not too expensive. If you need to shoot wide open in the more near range, an external rangefinder may be attached to the hot shoe.

 

[MarkWalberg]

Hello all,

Here is another "what should my first rangefinder be?" post. But, this world is very new to me and I welcome all input as I'm researching......

I'd strongly consider getting a fixed lens rangefinder without a meter. Get a low cost hand held meter (or an app on your phone) if you need it. I'd look at Konica IIIA, Konica IIIM or Topcon 35-S or 35-L. These are a joy to use, and they will keep you from the temptation to buy lenses. The lenses on these cameras are all great lenses. If you like rangefinding and if you want other focal lengths, then you can look at an interchangeable lens camera. The Canons are indeed great cameras.

Look for one that has a shutter that works well, or be willing to get the shutter cleaned (many are slow with oil).

 

[JSteed#2]

I have had the pleasure of shooting most of the cameras mentioned in this chain. Canons are a blast, Rollei 35 is a blast. Hear good things about the Konicas and Topcons but never had the pleasure. One omission from the chain that I think you should consider based upon your desire for a small camera is the Leica IIIf. Great picture taker, screw mount lenses carry over to Canon, tiny and just a lot of fun if you are process oriented. Attach a Voigtlander or Keks clip on meter, and you are all set. No camera electronics to fail. No battery dependence. Will outlive you. Good luck and welcome.

 

[Coldkennels]

+1 on the Leica IIIf. I much preferred it to the Canon P or the Canon 7. It's "quirky" by modern standards, but it's solid and classic - and a lot more versatile than a fixed lens RF.

Aim for a "red dial" model as they should all work perfectly with modern film cassettes, whereas the earlier black dial ones are sometimes missing the part that holds the shorter modern cassettes in place.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

+1 on the Leica IIIf. I much preferred it to the Canon P or the Canon 7. It's "quirky" by modern standards, but it's solid and classic - and a lot more versatile than a fixed lens RF.

Aim for a "red dial" model as they should all work perfectly with modern film cassettes, whereas the earlier black dial ones are sometimes missing the part that holds the shorter modern cassettes in place.

Only if IIIf hasn't got dreadful plastic frame on the back. It cracks, lenses falling out and here is no replacement. I have post war IIIc, all metal and it is fine, just typical for its time half-mirror less contrast.

 

[jrm27]

Wow, these look like relays great cameras. I hadn't even looked at the Leicas, and Rollei is a new one to me. I also was unaware of clip on meters.... always something new to learn! Thank you!

 

[Godfrey]

I've owned (own) and used all of these cameras ... and more.

Seems to me that if you want the experience using a rangefinder 35mm camera, you should get one with a rangefinder, not scale focus. That rules out the Rollei 35S (one of my old favorites). The Canon QL, Minolta HiMatic, etc, are all decent late-'60s/early to middle '70s cameras we used to buy for the photo staff in high school because they worked well and were available inexpensively new and used even way .. way! .. back then. Yes I'm old. 😉

My favorite old "mostly just one lens" rangefinder 35mm camera is a Kodak Retina IIc (or IIIc if you want a meter). It's a folder so it folds up protecting the lens when not in use and can slip in a jacket pocket. You can even get 35mm and 80mm lenses for them... Manual everything so you have to think to use it. Excellent lens (the IIc is a 50mm f/2.8, the IIIc is a 50mm f/2) from either Schneider or Rodenstock. One in top condition is usually findable for $100 to $250 ... If you look for one that needs a good service, you can find those for under $30, but then spend $150 or so on a service.

A couple of photos:

Kodak Retina IIc w Schneider 50mm f/2.8 lens


Kodak Retina IIc w 80 and 35 lenses fitted​

These are some of my favorite 35mm RF cameras, and the experience using them vs using any SLR camera is dramatic and fun. The lenses are superb, on par with good Leica lenses, and the fact that the basic camera folds up and slides into a jacket pocket easily makes them great cameras for casual walks and occasional street shooting. Also, people love having their photos taken with one of these "quaint looking" old 35mm cameras. 😉

G

 

[jrm27]

Wow, the little Kodak looks awesome! I bet that is a blast to shoot with. I feel like I saw one in a local shop.. but it admittedly could have been any one of the many folding kodaks. I might need to return and check.

 

[bbutterfield]

I've owned (own) and used all of these cameras ... and more.

Seems to me that if you want the experience using a rangefinder 35mm camera, you should get one with a rangefinder, not scale focus. That rules out the Rollei 35S (one of my old favorites). The Canon QL, Minolta HiMatic, etc, are all decent late-'60s/early to middle '70s cameras we used to buy for the photo staff in high school because they worked well and were available inexpensively new and used even way .. way! .. back then. Yes I'm old. 😉

My favorite old "mostly just one lens" rangefinder 35mm camera is a Kodak Retina IIc (or IIIc if you want a meter). It's a folder so it folds up protecting the lens when not in use and can slip in a jacket pocket. You can even get 35mm and 80mm lenses for them... Manual everything so you have to think to use it. Excellent lens (the IIc is a 50mm f/2.8, the IIIc is a 50mm f/2) from either Schneider or Rodenstock. One in top condition is usually findable for $100 to $250 ... If you look for one that needs a good service, you can find those for under $30, but then spend $150 or so on a service.

A couple of photos:

Kodak Retina IIc w Schneider 50mm f/2.8 lens


Kodak Retina IIc w 80 and 35 lenses fitted​

These are some of my favorite 35mm RF cameras, and the experience using them vs using any SLR camera is dramatic and fun. The lenses are superb, on par with good Leica lenses, and the fact that the basic camera folds up and slides into a jacket pocket easily makes them great cameras for casual walks and occasional street shooting. Also, people love having their photos taken with one of these "quaint looking" old 35mm cameras. 😉

G

I prefer the Retina IIa over the IIc mostly for the more ergonomic (to me) top film advance lever. Also it is less subject to the stripped cocking rack issue that plagues bottom film advance models. But both are simple, beautiful cameras that don’t get near the appreciation they deserve.

 

[Coldkennels]

Only if IIIf hasn't got dreadful plastic frame on the back. It cracks, lenses falling out and here is no replacement.

Replacements are not only available, they're dirt cheap: Eye-piece frame for Leica IIIf 3f 2f 1f 3c 2c 1c eyepiece | eBay UK

I replaced the surround in my IIIf with one of those from Nobbysparrow a couple of years ago. Works a treat.

I should also add that the plastic surround on the IIIf is much more friendly to glasses than the metal eyepiece of many other cameras, Leicas or not!

 

[Godfrey]

I prefer the Retina IIa over the IIc mostly for the more ergonomic (to me) top film advance lever. Also it is less subject to the stripped cocking rack issue that plagues bottom film advance models. But both are simple, beautiful cameras that don’t get near the appreciation they deserve.

It's a personal preference. 🙂

I prefer the IIc/IIIc because they're a little bit newer and I like they way they feel, and because my mom had one and I remember liking it when I was a child. I've not experienced the 'stripped cocking rack issue' with any of mine (I had six of them, bought cheap, and had four of them serviced, none of them needed the cocking rack repaired... one was used for parts to convert a IIIc to a meterless top cover). The last of them is pretty beat up, looks like it was used as a baseball, but it *might* be worth the repair and service cost yet.

They're all good, far as I'm concerned. 🙂

G

 

[Bolo Kukus]

I had Leicas - 2 and M3 - in the 1980s and I loved them both. Hard times came and I had to sell the two kits. They are still greatly missed.

Now I'm a pensioner. I had dreams of buying another M2, but they are now too expensive for my budget. A few years ago an estate sale iif came my way and I nabbed it at a not cheap but reasonable price. It came with the stellar Elmar 50/3.5. I quickly acquired a 50/2.0 Summicron (the collapsible one, a gift), a 35/3.5 Summaron and a 90/4.0 Elmar. I then decided to stop buying there as I realised I could too easily and quickly become a bankrupt pensioner. Yes, budget. Or lack of...

I use the iif with a Weston Euromaster. When I go walkabout I have the camera and one lens (usually the Summaron) with a UV and a lens hood, a Weston EuroMaster meter, and one or at most two cassettes of film. That's the entire kit.

it's entirely mechanical, very little to go wrong, and when something does it can usually be quick-repaired at not too high cost. The exception for me was the 50 Summicron which was riddled with haze. I sent it in for cleaning and in the end it cost me more than the camera. Lesson learned, but that lens was a gift to me from its original owner. So.

Not low-budget cheap to buy, but a good Leica screw mount f or g can go a long way to keep one's excessive GAS compulsions under control.