Losing the historic record?

[Vics]

I got halfway down the first page of this thread and found that it had become another film v. digital argument, so I had to go back to the top to see what the original question was. I don't have an answer, but I do have a related question. Is this mostly a UK problem? I don't ever get harrassed obout photographing in public in the US or in France, but I read about it happening all the time in the UK! What's going on over there?
Vic

 

[Micky D]

Let's ask Doctor House:
Nope, not Lupus.
Calm down, monkey. A little say anything. What's that smell?

This used to be an interesting forum for sharing photographic ideas and the love of photography and images.

 

[bmattock]

This used to be an interesting forum for sharing photographic ideas and the love of photography and images.

Since when?

 

[chris000]

I got halfway down the first page of this thread and found that it had become another film v. digital argument, so I had to go back to the top to see what the original question was. I don't have an answer, but I do have a related question. Is this mostly a UK problem? I don't ever get harrassed obout photographing in public in the US or in France, but I read about it happening all the time in the UK! What's going on over there?
Vic

I feel it has become a real problem in urban areas of the UK, though less so in rural areas so far. Having said that, I was challenged a few weeks ago because I was taking a landscape photograph which included a horse in a field. The horse's owner was nearby and got rather hysterical, accusing me of photographing her horse so that I could later come back and steal it.

She thought:

1. That I needed her permission to photograph her horse (I don't)

2. That she could demand to see the photos I had taken (she can't - I was shooting film so it would not have been possible anyway)

3. That she could demand my name and address (she can't - although my vehicle was parked nearby and she did write down the registration number)

The photo in question is below, paranoia or what? But this is the kind of attitude that is becoming more and more common in the UK now. I ignored her and assumed that she would call the police, but if they turned up it was after I had gone.

 

[feenej]

I just (about a minute ago) heard a story on USA National Public Radio about how the written record is being lost. As an example, all the historical records for the US Air Force operations on a certain mission were on an old Mac computer (in the Pentagon?) that was almost thrown out.

 

[bmattock]

I just (about a minute ago) heard a story on USA National Public Radio about how the written record is being lost. As an example, all the historical records for the US Air Force operations on a certain mission were on an old Mac computer (in the Pentagon?) that was almost thrown out.

Yeah, that never happened with big boxes of paper records. 🙄

 

[feenej]

I understand it's human error, but loss of electronic records has been in the news a lot for the past year or two making me think that there is something to it.

 

[bmattock]

She thought:
1. That I needed her permission to photograph her horse (I don't)
2. That she could demand to see the photos I had taken (she can't - I was shooting film so it would not have been possible anyway)
3. That she could demand my name and address (she can't - although my vehicle was parked nearby and she did write down the registration number)

I like the photo quite a bit, but I have to say that between the gate, the fenceposts, and the wonky skyline, it makes me a bit dizzy! Not your fault, they all have a different idea of what 'up' happens to be.

As to the lady in question, yes, that happens quite a bit.

I read a news item in the local paper last summer about a lady who creates textile artworks and sells them at 'art fairs' that are open to the public; I'm sure you know the kind. She is outdoors on blocked-off city streets - so are the attendees. There is no admission collected, it is a public venue in every sense of the word. But she fears others will photograph her work, copy it, and ruin her business. So she was describing to the reporter how she confronted everyone she saw who had a camera, and in one case, she took it away and triumphantly smashed it - all the while threatening to 'call the police' on the man she took it from.

The reporter did not do the slightest bit of research into what the woman said regarding the legality of her 'confiscating' and 'destroying' cameras from passers-by, she just reported it like the artist was the victim and how terrible, awful, and bad those photographers were to have presumed they could just take a photo of anything they chose! Of course, the news article was illustrated with a photo of the woman standing, arms crossed, in front of her booth - and you could see the textiles hanging there. I guess reporter's cameras don't steal copyrights.

I don't go to art fairs anymore. I don't really like artists. Most of them are jerks.

 

[bmattock]

I understand it's human error, but loss of electronic records has been in the news a lot for the past year or two making me think that there is something to it.

I can only repeat that banks understand how to protect data, and thank goodness they do. If they can, and NASA can't, then shame on NASA. It's not like this is ... (wait for it)...rocket science or something. Hahahaha, I slay myself.

 

[John Robertson]

I can only repeat that banks understand how to protect data, and thank goodness they do. If they can, and NASA can't, then shame on NASA. It's not like this is ... (wait for it)...rocket science or something. Hahahaha, I slay myself.

Things are obviously better your side of the pond!!🙄
Recently in UK we have had Banks, Government Departments,and Local Authority employees all leaving lap-tops on trains buses etc, with very confidential information on them. We have had Data CD's lost in the post because they had been sent by ordinary unsecured post. A national Bank here in the UK lost a data CD with records of customers addresses, A/C numbers D of B etc last year.🙁

 

[bmattock]

Things are obviously better your side of the pond!!🙄
Recently in UK we have had Banks, Government Departments,and Local Authority employees all leaving lap-tops on trains buses etc, with very confidential information on them. We have had Data CD's lost in the post because they had been sent by ordinary unsecured post. A national Bank here in the UK lost a data CD with records of customers addresses, A/C numbers D of B etc last year.🙁

Oh no, that has happened. By 'losing data' I meant to say data that become unavailable for its intended purpose - like your checking account balance going walkabout, for example. One does not like to receive an electronic 'shrug' followed by "I have no idea" when querying one's balance.

But as to 'losing data' in the sense of private and sensitive data showing up in places it oughtn't, and being stolen along with the laptops it was carelessly copied to, yes, that happens with distressing frequency. Not the fault of the data-integrity and backup boys, but definitely the IT security people have some red faces.

http://www.pcworld.com/article/158380/used_mp3_player_comes_with_secret_military_files.html

It is one thing (and quite a bad one) to have your personal data become available to those not intended to have it - even worse if the data can no longer be found by those who are intended to have it.

 

[rumbliegeos]

Sorry about the change of direction

Sorry about the change of direction

Part of the work I do is in the field of data preservation. Amazingly, lots of us do. And we're good at it. Please don't tell me that you work in this field as well, that would make me very sad.

Wow, I do apologize for inadvertently hijacking this thread. My intent in posting that point about digital versus analogue photo records was related to an unstated thought that laws or "security paranoia" may come and go with governments or cultural changes, but survival of records may have a much longer effect on the preservation of "history". And, I was not thinking about the formal, commercial record, I was thinking about family photos - an underrated source of basic social history.

No, I do not work in the IT industry, but I was the curator of a 300,000 image collection of negatives, prints of various kinds (including cyanotypes, ambrotypes, etc), and glass lantern slides that were made from about 1860 to 1955. I surely did not mean to say the work done by professionals in digital preservation is invalid, it is precisely what needs to be more common.

 

[40oz]

film is inherently of a limited lifespan. But that span is quite a bit longer than digital media. Yes, if someone religiously copies and recopies the digital data it can be preserved perhaps to infinity. But we all know that won't happen. It's quite a bit of expense compared to a shoebox in a closet for 100 years.

 

[Pablito]

shame the OP uses a white font, making it illegible for those of us who use the white background, VBP Iskin

 

[wray]

Speaking of historical records, I have two ream boxes full of family photos from the 19th century. None have any information indicating the who or where of the images. And the people who could supply this info are long gone also! So, digital or film, the images do need identifying information accompanying them!

 

[sjw617]

film is inherently of a limited lifespan. But that span is quite a bit longer than digital media. Yes, if someone religiously copies and recopies the digital data it can be preserved perhaps to infinity. But we all know that won't happen. It's quite a bit of expense compared to a shoebox in a closet for 100 years.

What expense? The next version of a JPEG or TIFF will be something that a few mouse clicks will convert as you watch TV one evening.

 

[Michael Markey]

Good point,Chris.

 

[Michael Markey]

Chris,re the horse photo. I keep horses and last year there was a story in Horse and Hound about an gang from the eastern block going around photographing horses on a steal to order basis. The story appeared to be backed up by reputable horse welfare bodies but after a few months of worry for all us owners the story started to be questioned and the upshot was that it appeared to have no foundation. Until then everone was on full alert.
Your original point about the value of photographs for posterity is well made trouble is ,as Al Kaplin has pointed out,which ones will they be.
Ps Like the horse photo.

 

[40oz]

What expense? The next version of a JPEG or TIFF will be something that a few mouse clicks will convert as you watch TV one evening.

The expense is paying someone to constantly back up and store the files. You aren't going to convert to new jpg or tiff specs, you need to copy the images on new media repeatedly to ensure the media itself doesn't degrade to the point the files are unreadable.

I worked for a company that stored data for banks and insurance companies. It was a warehouse full of tapes. Every day we ran tapes through the machines, pulled tapes for shipping to Stone Mountain, and put away tapes that came in from there. That kind of data caretaking is not cheap. Anyone who thinks digital files are "forever" is leaving out the human and economic side of the equation.