kelvination
Member
I am in the midst of a leica M3 refurbish project.
Note to the more experienced and professional level repair professionals. My post is no way an attempt to offend or infringe. Consider my project as being akin to the person who wants to repair or rebuild their vintage car. Just with a camera instead. This forum appears to be the best watering hole for sharing thoughts and insight so I will forge into the fray.
Two questions: would anyone mind sharing thoughts as to the specific best lubricants (and glues and locking agents for that matter when appropriate) that you used in your rebuild? My problem is that the number of choices seem infinite as regards viscosities of oils/greases, etc. I want to build on the current knowledge base and accumulated success stories and failures.
I'm very torn as to which specific greases and oils will work best for the various components. This information is hard to come by and never fully spelled out. I wrote one camera repair professional who kindly told me he uses synthetic greases and oils, but he was elusive on specific viscosities, types or brands, understandably. Frankly, if this were a make or break camera repair, I'd forward to him or other repair professionals. In this case though, this is a project of self-fulfillment.
I can find no postings that get into specifics. Once I find a consensus, I hope to post my experiences for future home CLAers. CLA and camera repair is becoming a lost art and the accumulated wisdom should be brought to the light if possible.
FYI, in my case my intention is to CLA a broken double stroke M3 I got at a good low price. I will be replacing the curtains and subsequently, dechroming, denickeling and repainting black. These latter aspects I can handle (I am a chemist, and my brother is a professional airbrush painter) but I want to get the lubrication perfect.
All thoughts are appreciated. I am not completely ignorant. I have an original M3 service manual,as well as other guides (Camera Craftsman's treatise as well as the US.Army document on the M2. The M3 service manual and Army document only mention long unavailable, typically organic lubricants. I am hoping for anecdotal solutions to this problem such as those you may have employed.
So far, my research has let to the following. Bear in mind, this is based on the starting point of lubricants recommended by Gus Lazarri. However, he wasn't able to specify direct correlation between his suggested lubricants and the original ones used by Leica. Still, I greatly appreciate his input.
I have cross referenced the M3 service manual with various commentary on the web and tried to determine the most analogous agent in the list of modern lubricants Gus provided. I fear I may be oversimplifying so please forgive me. Here is a list of the agents typically used according to the Leica M3 service manual equated to the modern lubricant to the best of my ability to determine.
Leitz number/description/type = analog from Gus's list:
300/Heavy grease/Losimol Magunna type 1150-A
=Valvoline Durablend Blue partial-synthetic grease ? (penetrating constant of 275 implies a heavier consistency, thus the closest match I can find in the list)
460/Medium Grease/Kluber type VP-2
= This appears to be a most analogous to a teflon based grease like Superlube PTFE
601/ball bearing OIL. Used a lot in the M3.
= Full synthetic Valvoline 0W-20 SYNpower (least viscous oil here)
602/Kluber PDP-38 95%+alugel(5%)
= alugel is an aluminum hydroxide soap based grease. Nothing on Gus's list is really analogous to this so I am not really sure. Thankfully, not used much
618 Light Grease, Ernst Leitz, GmBH. Used a lot in the M3.
= Super-white Lithium grease, the grease with the least viscosity and lowest NLGI (~1.5)
704 Medium Grease Shell #7 (95%)+MoS2 microfine (5%). Used a lot in the M3.
=Sta-Lube Moly-Graph Extreme Pressure Grease, heavy loading Boundary Lube.
340 Losimol Magunna type BO-4/4
= Per research, often used for helicoids, so must be at least a little "sticky". I'm guessing durablend might work here
428 Medium Grease/Kluber type LDS-18 Heavy
= a lithium based grease for bearings and aperture rings, so Sta-Lube super white Lithium grease is the closest analog.
My research of the iiif (via the national camera reference I bought) shows that they (Larry Lyell's I presume) only mentions shutter oil for the areas needing oiling (like the bearings and the slow speed escapement) and a moly grease for the heavier duty objects that slide relative to one another. I doubt the lubricant needs had changed all that much between the iiif and the M3 and figure I could probably get away with just and oil like the 0W20 and the moly grease. But for now (unless Gus or others suggest otherwise, will use the list above).
Bear in mind, I am an amateur with a science and arts background, so do not consider this professional advice.
Note to the more experienced and professional level repair professionals. My post is no way an attempt to offend or infringe. Consider my project as being akin to the person who wants to repair or rebuild their vintage car. Just with a camera instead. This forum appears to be the best watering hole for sharing thoughts and insight so I will forge into the fray.
Two questions: would anyone mind sharing thoughts as to the specific best lubricants (and glues and locking agents for that matter when appropriate) that you used in your rebuild? My problem is that the number of choices seem infinite as regards viscosities of oils/greases, etc. I want to build on the current knowledge base and accumulated success stories and failures.
I'm very torn as to which specific greases and oils will work best for the various components. This information is hard to come by and never fully spelled out. I wrote one camera repair professional who kindly told me he uses synthetic greases and oils, but he was elusive on specific viscosities, types or brands, understandably. Frankly, if this were a make or break camera repair, I'd forward to him or other repair professionals. In this case though, this is a project of self-fulfillment.
I can find no postings that get into specifics. Once I find a consensus, I hope to post my experiences for future home CLAers. CLA and camera repair is becoming a lost art and the accumulated wisdom should be brought to the light if possible.
FYI, in my case my intention is to CLA a broken double stroke M3 I got at a good low price. I will be replacing the curtains and subsequently, dechroming, denickeling and repainting black. These latter aspects I can handle (I am a chemist, and my brother is a professional airbrush painter) but I want to get the lubrication perfect.
All thoughts are appreciated. I am not completely ignorant. I have an original M3 service manual,as well as other guides (Camera Craftsman's treatise as well as the US.Army document on the M2. The M3 service manual and Army document only mention long unavailable, typically organic lubricants. I am hoping for anecdotal solutions to this problem such as those you may have employed.
So far, my research has let to the following. Bear in mind, this is based on the starting point of lubricants recommended by Gus Lazarri. However, he wasn't able to specify direct correlation between his suggested lubricants and the original ones used by Leica. Still, I greatly appreciate his input.
I have cross referenced the M3 service manual with various commentary on the web and tried to determine the most analogous agent in the list of modern lubricants Gus provided. I fear I may be oversimplifying so please forgive me. Here is a list of the agents typically used according to the Leica M3 service manual equated to the modern lubricant to the best of my ability to determine.
Leitz number/description/type = analog from Gus's list:
300/Heavy grease/Losimol Magunna type 1150-A
=Valvoline Durablend Blue partial-synthetic grease ? (penetrating constant of 275 implies a heavier consistency, thus the closest match I can find in the list)
460/Medium Grease/Kluber type VP-2
= This appears to be a most analogous to a teflon based grease like Superlube PTFE
601/ball bearing OIL. Used a lot in the M3.
= Full synthetic Valvoline 0W-20 SYNpower (least viscous oil here)
602/Kluber PDP-38 95%+alugel(5%)
= alugel is an aluminum hydroxide soap based grease. Nothing on Gus's list is really analogous to this so I am not really sure. Thankfully, not used much
618 Light Grease, Ernst Leitz, GmBH. Used a lot in the M3.
= Super-white Lithium grease, the grease with the least viscosity and lowest NLGI (~1.5)
704 Medium Grease Shell #7 (95%)+MoS2 microfine (5%). Used a lot in the M3.
=Sta-Lube Moly-Graph Extreme Pressure Grease, heavy loading Boundary Lube.
340 Losimol Magunna type BO-4/4
= Per research, often used for helicoids, so must be at least a little "sticky". I'm guessing durablend might work here
428 Medium Grease/Kluber type LDS-18 Heavy
= a lithium based grease for bearings and aperture rings, so Sta-Lube super white Lithium grease is the closest analog.
My research of the iiif (via the national camera reference I bought) shows that they (Larry Lyell's I presume) only mentions shutter oil for the areas needing oiling (like the bearings and the slow speed escapement) and a moly grease for the heavier duty objects that slide relative to one another. I doubt the lubricant needs had changed all that much between the iiif and the M3 and figure I could probably get away with just and oil like the 0W20 and the moly grease. But for now (unless Gus or others suggest otherwise, will use the list above).
Bear in mind, I am an amateur with a science and arts background, so do not consider this professional advice.
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