mpaniagua
Newby photographer
You have wings? WHOAA cool!!
. Sorry couldnt help myself. I get what you mean. I'm sticking with the M6. Have my doubts about M7 and not really interested on digital Leica. Q is very beautiful but still not my cup of tea.Regards.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
Brennan,
My particular Rollie 3.5F is a "Whiteface" I bought at Adorama for $999.00. It looked like a Shelf Queen because it seemed unused, but when I got it home and loaded it with film the camera repeatedly jammed, and I basically was ready to return the camera for a refund. It was almost impossible to get a roll of film through the camera, and I ended up just throwing the film away.
I did the research and then discovered that I actually had stumbled into a remarkable camera, and learned then that I found a camera that was grossly mispriced. It was at this time that I found out I had a Whiteface, and it was worth a lot more than the cost of repair. Then I decided to figure out my options about a repair. I also did some research on Maxwell screens. All this was a learning process.
So I used some judgement, and my personal spin was that perhaps the long wait with Fleenor over other techs was because he was deemed very heavily as the best. This was not marketing, but happy third person experiences, and there were a lot of them. Harry was pleasent to communicate with, and he has a very good/outstanding reputation. So I had Harry evaluate the camera and he gave me an estimate.
I also choose Harry because of his factory trained credential and because he was a specialist and not a generalist. This was mostly due to feeling good about entering an area I did not feel comfortable in. In all my research that was rather extensive (boring day job) I read not one bad word, and that was not true for some others.
So in the end the shutter had to be overhauled and also the film transport. This camera got an overhaul because it needed it, the Maxwell screen was an option, and it was installed for free since other work was being performed. In this case the camera needed an overhaul, and I'm glad that Harry did it. Harry's reputation is so great that the sticker that inside the camera, Harry's trademark, means a lot of value added to any buyer.
The repairs totaled about $600.00 with the Maxwell screen so for little money I have a rare camera that I will keep over the long-long term. As far as getting overhauls I am guilty of spending money that might not have been required. Waiting for me is not a problem like it is for others. Just stating a fact because I always try to use good judgement: anyways at least good for me.
My famed Wetzlar M6 came off EBAY from a dealer with a dead frame counter. I shot it for a year with the dead frame counter, but one day for no apparent reason the rangefinder was off. So at that time I had it overhauled instead of just repaired. The plastic spring used on the frame counter on a M6 was replaced with a metal version from an earlier M-body by Sherry. It could be argued either way to just repair the camera, but I decided to go all the way. Which way is better? I can't answer that, but keep in mind that this camera is a keeper.
I did not mean to slander Youxin, He happens to have a fast turnaround on repairs. The point that I was trying to make is that Leica is not the only place where one can wait for a long time for a repair. From personal experience I will say that DAG is worse than Leica.
In my experiance I ordered some parts (M3 eyeglass protector and some sync) plugs. I waited and waited, and because the cost was so little I forgot about it, but eventually my parts came almost a year later. It was kinda funny. Evidently I got a note as an apology saying that they were out of stock. I would not feel good about sending any camera to DAG based on my experience.
I have no doubt, and I am aware of your associate's problems, it is just that I never had a bad experience with Sherry, and she still has a great reputation with me.
Know that I once owned a M6 HM with the 0.85 VF'er. When it jammed for no reason I went to Nippon to have it repaired, but I choose to trade the camera away eventually. Not every camera is a keeper.
Cal
Leica had the cash to spend, and put loads of it into Leica Park Wetzlar.
They could have easily put money into faster service turnaround and better repair departments, but they didn't.
They could have easily put money into faster service turnaround and better repair departments, but they didn't.
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
SK,
The repair times can surely be improved, but using your analogy to Donald Trump, he is the President Elect, and what can I do about it?
Know that I'm not moving to Canada.
It is what it is.
Is getting my almost 4 year old Monochrom back after perhaps 8-10 weeks of waiting overhauled and with a sensor replacement for free a good deal? After almost four years of pleasure, warts and all. My cost?
Anyways a good deal for me? I think so.
Cal
______
Well-known
Oh. Are you a factory certified artist or do you just do good work?
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
I decided to respond to this.
I have a BA, a MA and a MFA. I have been around for a while, but I just consider myself a guy with a ponytail. I also have been working day-jobs all my life to support myself.
What is the point of your post? Personal attack? WHO ARE YOU?
Cal
______
Well-known
You didn't mind dissing Youxin Ye because he wasn't factory certified and has a day job as an accountant to support himself.
I think you have to take Cal's comments as light-hearted comments. It's mostly in good fun. As far as technicians go, I can see why being trained to do something would be a good thing. Sure, someone that was not factory trained might be good as well, I think if you have a choice... it's nice to have someone trained. I think that was Cal's point.
cz23
-
Bad analogy. You'll starve to death long before your Leica meal arrives.
But they've got us over the proverbial barrel. We can't exactly take our DRF business elsewhere.
John
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
Again, I don't want to sound like I'm bashing the brand or anything or any of the techs. I just feel like some of these things could be avoided. They had the money to build this crazy facility in Germany and can afford to continue popping up boutiques but they can't seem to get a pro services facility up and going. I can't afford to own a Monochrom at this point in time but at some point I'd like to and at some point it will probably need a service and I'd really like to not have to worry about stuff like this. For some, owning these products isn't a big deal but for some of us it's a privilege to use it and when something goes wrong it really sucks when you can't use your favorite or only tool to create images.
SaveKodak
Well-known
Sounds like his point was well said and received. If two repair people do good work then slapping 'factory trained' on one is just gilding the lilly. There are no secrets inside Rolleiflex cameras. A qualified tech can do as good a job as someone who'd actually been to the factory 30+ years ago. Keep in mind the FX and GX were very different cameras from the F and whatever Henry learned all those decades ago is not exactly the same as knowing the secret ingredient to Bush's Baked Beans.
I got my 2.8E 2 or 3 years ago. Went to Panorama and had those charming Russians custom modify it to take Hasselblad prisms and finders and install a Maxwell that I ordered. Fast forward to now the shutter speeds are all great, the focus calibration is spot on, and everything is working smoothly. I spent probably $150-160 on the screen and the labor and was separated from my camera for 1 week. I use it for personal and professional work too so it's been around since I acquired it. It doesn't make a bit of difference to me whether or not my guy at Panorama says he's ''factory trained''. (this is not to denigrate Fleenor who is a great tech, I just think he takes too long).
I'm not so sure they need a "pro" service, they just need better service. How many pros are using these? Should a pro be the only one who gets quick service? Just because I'm an amateur doesn't mean I don't love using my camera or that I don't rely on it / use it often.
Back when I used Leicas, this was the story I gave to Leica NJ. You know what? It worked. The work was done quickly and they often halved the fees that they quoted to me after explaining my situation. Honestly.
SaveKodak
Well-known
I loved my old Toyota! I have since fallen in love with Subaru though. But as to your point, absolutely. I always encourage people to, and like Apple used to say, "Think Different." Just because something is one way doesn't mean it must be, and conventional thinking is often wrong.
Robert Lai
Well-known
Bill,
The camera equivalent of a Toyota is Canon / Nikon / Pentax. Built to a price, built reliably, and providing good value for money. I do own a Toyota Corolla as a daily commute vehicle. Works fine, but I do regularly bring it in to the dealer for its scheduled service. I drove over 100 miles each day, so I didn't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with a breakdown. Well, it did fail to start once, when it was only 2 years old. That was due to a faulty battery that died prematurely. All has been good since then.
A Leica is more like a Mercedes-Benz. Expensive, and requires more specialist technicians. Also built in Germany (well, some Mercedes are now built in Alabama, I think). You should be aware of the cost of service before you buy.
The camera equivalent of a Toyota is Canon / Nikon / Pentax. Built to a price, built reliably, and providing good value for money. I do own a Toyota Corolla as a daily commute vehicle. Works fine, but I do regularly bring it in to the dealer for its scheduled service. I drove over 100 miles each day, so I didn't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with a breakdown. Well, it did fail to start once, when it was only 2 years old. That was due to a faulty battery that died prematurely. All has been good since then.
A Leica is more like a Mercedes-Benz. Expensive, and requires more specialist technicians. Also built in Germany (well, some Mercedes are now built in Alabama, I think). You should be aware of the cost of service before you buy.
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
I just define pro-service as having a loaner program of some kind and getting work done in a timely manner. Not necessarily something like CPS or NPS. I don't think Hasselblad has a pro service either but I feel like Leica could use their service model as a template for their own.
SaveKodak
Well-known
A fair amount of people use them professionally just not for the same projects that they might use their Canikons. A lot of wedding and portrait people have one around. They're great for certain parts of the day.
Ko.Fe.
Lenses 35/21 Gears 46/20
Nothing stays the same anymore. Our 2006 American Sienna is above of any American made American van, but it eats tires, disks and pads and nowhere near fuel economy they proclaimed. Recalls are plenty.
Jobs is gone long time ago, after it Apple is not inventing anything new and phones are manufactured in China. I have seen pictures from other phone manufactures couple of years ago with IQ above of Apple latest one.
My iPhone turns off once it is getting slightly cold. The message it shows - "it is too hot"
Leica is very small camera, lenses manufacturer based in Germany. How good was Cosina service for American customers? I send e-mail to their official manufacturer representative in Canada. Dead end...
Calzone
Gear Whore #1
My apologies again.
I was addressing Brennan's post specifically about how he grouped Youxin with others. I thought I was clear about that.
I apologized once, and I apologize again. In fact I even stated that he out of all of them Youxin seems to be the most timely: a complement. I was being challenged on my choices, and was specifically why I would make those choices. No insult intended.
I for one know what it is like to work a regular job to support myself. No shame in that.
The fact is that some repair people are specialists, some are factory certified, and some are full time repair as their primary profession. I was trying to distinguish some repair people over another specifically mentioned as an example from Brennan's post. Also know that I have no experience with Youxin, but the others I mentioned I do.
Cal
mpaniagua
Newby photographer
I think you had it right. Same issue than with cars, you should be aware of their service cost in money and time before you commit to a system. This topic (Leica customer service that many people dont like) has been discussed before so its a well know topic. You should be aware of that before you commit to a product like Digital Leica camera's.
Do one really, absolutetly need a EVF camera? Does your customer really is asking for that? I think thats a personal choice. If you cant live with the service cost in both time and money, dont step into something that may screw up the fun.
Just my pre coffee rant.
Regards.
I understood that. However, if you are going to have the wait times they have, I don't think it matters if you are pro or not.