M-Leicas in "extreme" conditions?

[pmu]

We know that Leica says that their cameras are tested and can be used in "extreme" conditions...but what does that mean? The most extreme thing here in Finland is that the weather might be cold as hel* - no problem there..and the second situation is that there might be snowing or raining -- and that is where the trouble starts. I just came outside where it's snowing quite a lot and it took me only just about 15 min being outside (covering the camera under my hands from the snow) and the viewfinder became totally foggy/wet and focusing became really difficult... This same happens always in a rainy day with both of my M-bodies. I have to say that this does not happen with my slr equipment.

So, what does this "extreme" conditions mean? Not rain / snow, I quess?

 

[Graham Line]

See if you can find a copy of Eric Baker's article about shooting Leicas and Nikons side by side in Antarctica, as published in the Leica Historical Society of America magazine during 2008. In a nutshell, the Ms would develop sluggish shutters in extreme cold.

 

[ClaremontPhoto]

You can likely get one of the specialists to ruggedize your camera to suit your usage.

Perhaps ask CRR of Luton (UK) to change lubricants and beef up seals for extreme cold conditions?

 

[MartinP]

I was using an M3 in Arctic Lapland six weeks ago - but of course it was still pretty hot then (around +4) and the rain/sleet was quite light. Previously I have been making photographs during a Norwegian winter too.

The viewfinder seems reasonably sealed, unlike the rest of the camera. Were you keeping the camera under a (relatively) steamy outer coat between shots ? That could easily cause condensation to form on the outer surfaces, with the different temperatures, and maybe on the insides of the outer v/f lenses too.

In low temperatures the grease on the lens will stiffen but, in the location I visited, it is only around minus eight now - not enough to freeze the camera in fifteen minutes. Also, If the camera is at ambient temperature, then the snow won't melt on it of course.

As you know, the main problems with using a very frozen camera can be static-sparks on the film and a slowed shutter. The shutter can be compensated easily enough as you can make a test in the freezer under controlled conditions with slide film, or using a simple home-made shutter timer on your pc sound-card.

Complete camera winterisation can be annoying if you want to use the same camera/lenses during the summer, so that can be a problem. Can you quantify the temperatures and humidity you found problems with ?.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Extreme heat and extreme cold, I'd guess, with reasonable care of the camera (as you'd take of yourself). I'd not expect it to work underwater, or for very long (many hours) in a heavy sandstorm. Pretty much marketing-speak, I suppose, but what they mean is, you don't have to baby it.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[gb hill]

Most M series cameras in operation today no doubt have been cla'd. With the advancement of synthetic lubricants in use today, I wonder the type of greases & oils being used. I would be willing to bet not much consideration is being thought out. A synthetic lube will withstand extreme cold temps. while a conventional oil will harden or thicken at near freezing temps. This is something that needs to be considered when you have your camera cla'd.

 

[rolleistef]

IIIc Kugellager...

 

[Beemermark]

The camera fogs up because it is very cold outside, your house is very warm (relative) and humid. When you bring it in just seal it a zip lock bag until it gets to room temperature. The Leicas are not rain / water proof. No rubber seals.

 

[pmu]

Ok, thanks for your comments. I don't have any problems with my cameras with cold weather (I mean not even with REALLY cold weather), but ALWAYS when the camera wets just a little bit because of rain or snow the viewfinder becomes totally foggy and the focusing is almost impossible from that on. I always do my best to protect the camera from wetting... In that aspect, I am even more careful than with any digital that I have used. Like today...it took only just a little bit of snow to melt on the surface of the camera and that did it...

Same thing has happened with M2, M4, M4-P and M6 bodies. Viewfinders don't like humid weather at all. This does not happen with any other of my cameras (I don't remember this happening with any slr I have used...).

Is there any way how to avoid this? Some extra seals to the viewfinder??

 

[sepiareverb]

Where's Ned when you need him? Now there's a guy who can attest to the reliability of Leica M cameras in the worst of conditions.

http://rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=772767&postcount=1

And a *gasp* M7 nonetheless!

 

[MartinP]

Hmmm, so the condensation is on the inside of the v/f lenses and can't be removed with a quick wipe ? I guess that would mean that the dampness is already there, inside, and is then condensing because the rain cools the outside of the v/f system.

I really haven't had the same problem with r/f or slr - which could well be plain dumb luck. In an slr, it can be that there are generally fewer small, sealed (more-or-less), un-ventilated parts that might produce condensation in the visual path.

Can you try some sort of desiccator to get the bodies really, really dry ? Maybe it is down to a gradually increasing amount of moisture inside the camera, which I have avoided by accident by living (mostly) in a less damp place.

As I'd like to stay a year up North in your country, I am curious about the different problems which can occur. Obviously, I liked my short trip 🙂

 

[pachuco]

Even with Canon L series lenses I don't change the temp on them quickly. I have had the opposite experience coming in from the heat into an air conditioned room.

 

[pmu]

Hmmm, so the condensation is on the inside of the v/f lenses and can't be removed with a quick wipe ? ....
Can you try some sort of desiccator to get the bodies really, really dry ?

Yes, exactly, the condensation is inside of the viewfinder... And yes, I happen to have always a lot of silica gel in my bag to get the moisture out...And if the camera gets wet, I 'll put it into a box with maybe 200 small bags of silica gel -- so believe, they are really dry after that 🙂

 

[maddoc]

I use my M cameras without problems at temperatures down to minus 10 degrees Celsius and during heavy snowfalls here in Hokkaido, Japan. Never had any problem, M4-P, M3, M6 worked all fine.

 

[MartinP]

I found out (from being seriously complained at over some gear for work) that the little gel things don't do much except make a slightly-dry patch in the gear carrying bag. Ooops. We made a temporary desiccator using a room-sized dehumidifier silica-gel pack (from the d.i.y. store) and a big plastic cake-cover. Even that amount (3-400g) of gel had to be dried out a few times, in the oven, during a week in Wales.

With the condensation happening so fast, it probably isn't going to be with new moisture finding it's way in. So the question is, does anyone know the best way to ventilate, and dry, the top of an M ???!

 

[sepiareverb]

I too regularly work in below freezing, and occasionally in below zero (F°) temps. The cameras do fine. I do try to keep spare batteries on hand, for they occasionally cash it in, but mechanics are always quite fine.

I always put the cold camera either under my coat or in a bag when I come indoors from very cold.

 

[nbphoto]

I read something recently on a Nikon forum about a guy who said his life was saved by an F5, hence he would never be without his trusty F5....

Someone queried just how an F5 could save his life etc... did he repel a mugger etc?

His response was brilliant. He was shooting on sea ice and fell through, he was washed away from his entry point and weighed down by his gear. He used the F5 to smash a hole in the ice through which to climb to (relative) safety. The F5 in question still works (minus metering) once dried out, and has a few dents!

 

[3js]

We know that Leica says that their cameras are tested and can be used in "extreme" conditions...but what does that mean? The most extreme thing here in Finland is that the weather might be cold as hel* - no problem there..and the second situation is that there might be snowing or raining -- and that is where the trouble starts. I just came outside where it's snowing quite a lot and it took me only just about 15 min being outside (covering the camera under my hands from the snow) and the viewfinder became totally foggy/wet and focusing became really difficult... This same happens always in a rainy day with both of my M-bodies. I have to say that this does not happen with my slr equipment.

So, what does this "extreme" conditions mean? Not rain / snow, I quess?

Muistitko pidätellä hengitystä kuvaushetkellä? Jos hengittää samalla kun katsoo etsimestä, niin sehän huurtuu heti, eikä sitten vähään aikaan mitään näekään. Tapahtuuko sama kesälläkin? Jos tapahtuu, niin sulla on etsimessä kosteusvaurio. Sen näkee sellaisena outona sumeena kalvona siellä etsimen sisällä. Kato fikkarin kanssa siitä etsimestä läpi, sen pitäis olla ihan kirkas.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Yes, this is weird. I too have used Leicas in cold temperatures, down to about -5C or maybe a little colder, and have never encountered this problem.

It seems odd, though, that ALL the OP's Leicas suffer from this, and that none of us has had the same problem. I'd certainly suspect damp already inside the cameras, from humid storage, but for several cameras, this seems unlikely unless they have indeed been stored somewhere humid.

Certainly, proper humidity-controlled storage for long periods might help. I use a Wonderful dry cabinet. (Wonderful is actually the brand name).

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Svitantti]

This is not about temperature, but humidity. The viewfinder goes foggy when its raining (especially with water).

As you see, pmu is saying the temperature itself isn't causing problems, but rain is. Water raining down on the camera, or snow raining down on it and melting.