M Monochrom: is "significantly higher resolution" junk science?

[ampguy]

You're very likely right Jaapv

You're very likely right Jaapv

as you have a prototype or pre-production in your hands.

I was mentioning what I thought of the ISO images taken by another pre-production M M user.

We'll all see once the finished version is out for anyone to use.

If you find 10.000 ISO unusable you are simply wrong. The files are totally clean up to 2500, virtually noiseless up to 5000 and very good at 10.000 with noise that is subdued and much more tolerable than the digital noise we are used to. And the sensor is biased towards green.

 

[jaapv]

That's typical of good CCD sensors and pretty typical of most "panchromatic" films, as well. On a monochrome sensor there's pretty much nothing that you can do in firmware to alter the spectral sensitivity profile. Screw-on filters it's gotta be.

I suspect you are right, but on the other hand, why should we be dictated by the spectral response of a certain type of film?😕
We have just entered the era of the digital monochrome photograph and - hopefully- will leave convert-and-imitate behind us. Let’s explore the possibilities this camera opens up instead of trying to restrict ourselves to something that is, in the end, a different discipline.

 

[semilog]

I suspect you are right, but on the other hand, why should we be dictated by the spectral response of a certain type of film?

The sensitivity of films and CCDs made for imaging are tuned to at least crudely mimic the sensitivity of the human visual system, which was in turn tuned by evolution to deal well with the kinds of scenes that we encounter out there in the world. That's not a bad starting point!

 

[jaapv]

Well, yes, and that is what Leica and several embedded testers told me they are striving for. Like you, I have a problem envisaging anything but a filter transmission solution, but the boffins at Solms appear to be thinking firmware.
Anyway, all cameras out there now are pre-production examples, so maybe we should judge subtleties like this when the first customer cameras appear in July.

 

[maddoc]

FT = Fourier Transformation?

Frequency domain = spectrum analysis?

What tool does one use to measure at that frequency?

I understand standardizing on a test-patern as a base line.

I'm a photo guy not a scientist.. just curious.

One would record images of certain test-patterns (consisting of line patterns of different shapes and orientations) and then analyze the recorded images after Fourier Transformations. Just think about a line pattern as a periodic bright-dark pattern and thus having a frequency of dark-white vs spatial distribution. A FT calculates the frequency of such a pattern and also shows frequencies of noise for example.

Basically, you need the raw-data from a sensor (luminescence data in a 2D matrix) and run these data through a FT algorithm.

If you have a Bayer-filter / AA-filter installed on-top of a sensor it will alter the contrast transfer (as does every other optical active element in an optical path) and thus should show up by a different 2D Fourier (frequency) pattern.

 

[mugget]

Interesting discussion, but I think someone has got their wires crossed...

First of all - Leica does not claim higher resolution. So where did this come from??? What they do claim is 100% sharper images and much better dynamic range. Also a full native resolution of 18 megapixels. True again, and the worlds first 35mm format digital camera that this can be said of.

Or maybe I am completely misunderstanding things? I have always thought that resolution equals the pixel size as seen on screen - which are exactly the same between the M9 and MM (i.e. 5212 x 3472 pixels). The MM does not produce any more pixels than the M9, therefore resolution is the same?

 

[BobYIL]

Interesting discussion, but I think someone has got their wires crossed...

First of all - Leica does not claim higher resolution. So where did this come from??? What they do claim is 100% sharper images and much better dynamic range. Also a full native resolution of 18 megapixels. True again, and the worlds first 35mm format digital camera that this can be said of.

Or maybe I am completely misunderstanding things? I have always thought that resolution equals the pixel size as seen on screen - which are exactly the same between the M9 and MM (i.e. 5212 x 3472 pixels). The MM does not produce any more pixels than the M9, therefore resolution is the same?

It's a fact.. read the former posts and my comments..

 

[BobYIL]

Removing the color array should have little effect on DR. Just more base sensitivity.

In fact the achievable DR is likely to be worse on a monochrome sensor because there are tricks that can be used during the demosaic process to extract additional DR from the different color channels on an RGB array -- when one channel is saturated you can make inferences about luminance from the other channels. With a monochrome sensor that cannot be so easily done. About the best you can do is look at the shoulders of the saturated region and use a Gaussian or related fit to make an inference about what's going on in the region that's saturated.

On the other hand the monochrome sensor will likely have lower shadow noise under strongly biased (incandescent, fluorescent) lighting where one or more of the RGB channels is not being utilized to its potential.

There will be no universal answers here. The relative DR and SNR of the monochrome versus RGB sensors will depend on subject, lighting, and the ISO at which the cameras are operated.
.

The observations with the former CCD as well as CMOS sensors led to a fact that removal of the CFA resulted in up to 2 stop less DR.. (I am trying to find out the reasons behind..)

If this also to be proven between the Monochrome and the M9 then I will start wondering of why Leica engineers have opted for such a mediocre idea.

 

[Dante_Stella]

Interesting discussion, but I think someone has got their wires crossed...

First of all - Leica does not claim higher resolution. So where did this come from??? What they do claim is 100% sharper images and much better dynamic range. Also a full native resolution of 18 megapixels. True again, and the worlds first 35mm format digital camera that this can be said of.

Or maybe I am completely misunderstanding things? I have always thought that resolution equals the pixel size as seen on screen - which are exactly the same between the M9 and MM (i.e. 5212 x 3472 pixels). The MM does not produce any more pixels than the M9, therefore resolution is the same?

Leica claims 100% sharper, which is itself questionable (what does that mean? lp/mm? acutance? edge contrast?), but quite a few others have long thought that the Bayer sensor somehow deprives a sensor of half its "resolution." And that interpretation has come up quite a bit in web discussions as it would relate to the M-M. Hence my question.

Dante

 

[Tim Gray]

Leica claims 100% sharper, which is itself questionable (what does that mean? lp/mm? acutance? edge contrast)

Which is probably why they worded it that way 😀

 

[rpsawin]

We have just entered the era of the digital monochrome photograph and - hopefully- will leave convert-and-imitate behind us. Let’s explore the possibilities this camera opens up instead of trying to restrict ourselves to something that is, in the end, a different discipline.

Perhaps this is the most important point. This camera represents a significant, evolutionary step in digital B&W photography. It is not the same as scanning negatives or even converting a color file. I, for one, expect lots of adjustments and tweaks for both hardware and software. Watching this continuing evolution will be fascinating. Unfortunately, I'll have to do it from the sidelines for now. At $8k it's out of my reach.

Best regards,

Bob

 

[thegman]

colour doesn't exist. It is a human perception, an interpolation from elctromagnetic waves. Sensors just measure electromagnetic waves and bayer filters filter wave bands not colour. Only we just assume that because the filters are made of material that we perceive as being Red, Blue or Green that the sensors are seeing colour. In reality they are measuring elctromagnetic waves of the wavelengths that we convert to colour in our visual perceptual system. So no sensors see in colour. They see in luminosity which is an accumulation of all the wavelengths that hit them.

Is that not like saying "mental illness does not exist", simply because it's human perception?

 

[DominikDUK]

Jaapv and rpsawin I hate to tell you this but the leica is not the first B/W only digicam that would be the Kodak DCS 760m it might not not have had an 18 MP sensor only 6,2MP but that was in 2002 and the images I have seen so far coming from the Leica leave me cold in fact I have to say I prefer the images made with the 10 year old Kodak camera. That opinion might change in the future.


Dominik

 

[Vince Lupo]

i've been extremely happy with the b/w images that I've been getting from my M9 -- shooting RAW and then converting in PhotoShop after the fact. The only place in which I could see an advantage (for me personally) would be the M9M's performance at higher ISO's (as in, higher than ISO 400). I'd be very interested to do a side-by-side comparison -- perhaps when the new Leica store in Washington DC gets one in for customers to handle, I'd likely go down there and compare it with my M9 in the store.

 

[Spicy]

no, it's not talking about perception. you could kind of argue that it's a similar way with computers. really, the only thing that exists to them is on and off (binary 1s and 0s). you can figure out ways to use this, but really, that's all they are.

the digital sensors are the same thing. all they're doing is measuring light. normal color sensors have to use filters to measure X color, meaning you lose a bit of information somewhere along the line, as it's being filtered.

with the B&W sensor, as there are no filters, it's basically able to spit out a number with a finer degree. kind of like having a painting that has 8 colors, 16 colors, 256 colors, or 1024 colors. the degree of gradiation is going to be finer. the question is, is it $1000 finer...

 

[ampguy]

Dante

Dante

I don't know what the sharpness means.

But perhaps their definition of resolution relating to the M-M is sampling resolution (not pixel count) increase for luminance and chroma vs models with Bayer CFAs which have reduced sampling rates and partially interpolated info. (even in RAW) vs direct measurement of some of this in the M-M.

The interesting aspect of this, to me, is how they will dial in the subjective tuning for mixed light frequencies that vary by geography, environment, and personal preferences.

Will folks be using different lenses and colored filters with this camera, or will everyone be happy with the default design and a 35 or 50 cron lens with no color filter on the end??

Leica claims 100% sharper, which is itself questionable (what does that mean? lp/mm? acutance? edge contrast?), but quite a few others have long thought that the Bayer sensor somehow deprives a sensor of half its "resolution." And that interpretation has come up quite a bit in web discussions as it would relate to the M-M. Hence my question.

Dante

 

[BobYIL]

(I don't believe Leica would state absurd claims while to prove the otherwise was no big deal..)


http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1878609&postcount=32

 

[rpsawin]

Jaapv and rpsawin I hate to tell you this but the leica is not the first B/W only digicam that would be the Kodak DCS 760m it might not not have had an 18 MP sensor only 6,2MP but that was in 2002 and the images I have seen so far coming from the Leica leave me cold in fact I have to say I prefer the images made with the 10 year old Kodak camera. That opinion might change in the future.

Dominik

Dominik,

Neither one of us have said otherwise. The M Monochrom represents a major evolutionary step in the development of digital B&W photography but certainly not the first step.

I expect the technology to get better and better, both hardware and software, and the images will get better as well. The M Monochrom is not a finished product and will get better in time. Time will tell if the camera is a success.

Best regards,

Bob

 

[celluloidprop]

I downloaded a couple of full-size JPGs off of Steve Huff's site - I was impressed by the malleability of the JPGs in LR4, I imagine RAW files are a treat.

Resolution didn't seem that special compared to similar-MP cameras, but Huff lives to shoot his fast lenses completely wide open so that's not really applicable to what I could download..

 

[DominikDUK]

Rpsawin sorry If I misunderstood you. But many sites on the net actually perverted the press release to

"Leica has officially announced its new monochrome digital rangefinder, the M Monochrom — the world’s first digital camera to do dedicated black and white photography." source Petapixel " and that's probably why I've come to the wrong conclusion regarding your post

Leica is more honest they actually call it the first full frame......

I fully agree with the second paragraph of your post and I wish Leica the best of Luck.

Dominik