norgas_co
Member
Greetings to all. I've posted this query here as Tom A. has possibly the most experience with this item. Also perhaps some of you have had your own M4 modified for the rapidwinder. I do know that other M models aside from m3/m4/m5 has built in mechanism to accommodate either the leicavit or the rapidwinder directly.
Unfortunately I have this want to complicate things a bit and possibly have my M4 (not -2 or -P) coupled to an old leicavit MP (syoom-m the one from the original mp&m2). I understand there are modifications needed to be done by a technician and wondering how extensive the work actually is. Anybody have direct experience having their M4 modified? Have the modifications affected the smoothness of the original transport?
Thanks for your shared knowledge or experiences.
PS: I have read the previous thread in this section similarly inquiring about coupling M4 with a rapidwinder. I am curious Tom, is there is any way to modify other than using the drive part from an m6 or m4-p for this? As I also fear the steel parts will possibly diminish the usual brass gear smoothness.
Unfortunately I have this want to complicate things a bit and possibly have my M4 (not -2 or -P) coupled to an old leicavit MP (syoom-m the one from the original mp&m2). I understand there are modifications needed to be done by a technician and wondering how extensive the work actually is. Anybody have direct experience having their M4 modified? Have the modifications affected the smoothness of the original transport?
Thanks for your shared knowledge or experiences.
PS: I have read the previous thread in this section similarly inquiring about coupling M4 with a rapidwinder. I am curious Tom, is there is any way to modify other than using the drive part from an m6 or m4-p for this? As I also fear the steel parts will possibly diminish the usual brass gear smoothness.
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Tom A
RFF Sponsor
It can be done and it is not that complicated. You will need the assistance of a very capable Leica tech (Don Goldberg would be my choice in this case). You need to install the "long" drive shaft from a M4M/Mot if you want to retain the film-counter. You can use the shaft from a M1/M2 - but that adds complexity as the film-counter mechanism from the M1/M2 is not the same as the M4M/Mot one.
The gear train on the M4-2/P was steel as it was designed for a Motor Winder and I suspect that DAG would use something like that. Leica went back to brass for the MP's as technology has changed, they could get precision cut gears and different alloy'ed brass - giving the strength of steel and the smoothness of brass.
In the "good, old days" Leica would do this conversion (Leicavit MP fitting on M3's and M4's if you asked nicely). I doubt it would work today though!
My biggest question is - using a SYOOM type Leicavit today can be problematic. There are no parts available for fixing things like stretched or busted chain, replacement springs and broken levers (they can crack at the hinge). The "shell" tends to dent and bend a bit too easily.
All in all - I would recommend picking up a regular M2 and use the SYOOM on that one instead (who uses 135's anyway - and the loading on a M2 is just as fast as that of a M4). Depending on how much you would use it - and barring mechanical problem with the SYOOM - it would probably cost the same as the conversion. Some of the parts needed are getting scarce and expensive.
The gear train on the M4-2/P was steel as it was designed for a Motor Winder and I suspect that DAG would use something like that. Leica went back to brass for the MP's as technology has changed, they could get precision cut gears and different alloy'ed brass - giving the strength of steel and the smoothness of brass.
In the "good, old days" Leica would do this conversion (Leicavit MP fitting on M3's and M4's if you asked nicely). I doubt it would work today though!
My biggest question is - using a SYOOM type Leicavit today can be problematic. There are no parts available for fixing things like stretched or busted chain, replacement springs and broken levers (they can crack at the hinge). The "shell" tends to dent and bend a bit too easily.
All in all - I would recommend picking up a regular M2 and use the SYOOM on that one instead (who uses 135's anyway - and the loading on a M2 is just as fast as that of a M4). Depending on how much you would use it - and barring mechanical problem with the SYOOM - it would probably cost the same as the conversion. Some of the parts needed are getting scarce and expensive.
jbrianfoto
Established
I had my M4 rigged by Sherry to work with the modern Leicavit. She got new parts for the job and it works great. Trouble is, I just brok my Vit (there is a posting about this on RFF). If you want more details about that job, M me and I'll fill you in.
norgas_co
Member
Thanks for that insight Tom. I would guess that later on it would be even more difficult find by the needed parts and worse the technicians who have the skills might then be retired.
What you said about the M4-M/Mot parts being used gave me an idea, finding one and have it adapted to take a syoom-m instead. Perhaps that would be more straightforward approach to adapt? What a match that would make.. Though the cost and availability of an M4-M/Mot to modify would be even more challenging.
A standard m4 modification may possibly be more within reach. Would be even more fantastic if there are those who could custom make the gear train from "modern brass" like you mentioned.
@jbrianfoto, thanks, may drop you a PM sometime.
What you said about the M4-M/Mot parts being used gave me an idea, finding one and have it adapted to take a syoom-m instead. Perhaps that would be more straightforward approach to adapt? What a match that would make.. Though the cost and availability of an M4-M/Mot to modify would be even more challenging.
A standard m4 modification may possibly be more within reach. Would be even more fantastic if there are those who could custom make the gear train from "modern brass" like you mentioned.
@jbrianfoto, thanks, may drop you a PM sometime.
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Vickko
Veteran
Silly question but does the Leicavit drive the sprocket shaft?
Or the film spool takeup shaft?
If it is the sprocket shaft, do you then need to drill a hole in the internal bottom plate cover?
Just asking....
Vick
Or the film spool takeup shaft?
If it is the sprocket shaft, do you then need to drill a hole in the internal bottom plate cover?
Just asking....
Vick
mooge
Well-known
the old leicavit drives the shaft that the take-up spool sits on (M2, old MP).
the new leicavit drives the two hole thingy in the bottom plate of the M4-2 and onwards cameras. so, to use a new leicavit in a M4, you'd need to drill a hole in the bottom plate and put that intermediate drive in.
the new leicavit drives the two hole thingy in the bottom plate of the M4-2 and onwards cameras. so, to use a new leicavit in a M4, you'd need to drill a hole in the bottom plate and put that intermediate drive in.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The M4M and M4 Mot works with the SYOOM without modification. Occasionally you need to retrofit the cross-pin on the drive - but in any of the M4M/M4Mots I have had - the Leicavit worked.
norgas_co
Member
Excellent, thanks for sharing your first hand experience about that. This is information that I haven't learned about elsewhere. Again, many thanks.
axiom
Non-Registered User
Old thread revived
Hi Tom,
Do you know if a leicavit (of any versions) would work on a KS15-4 or M2-R?
Hi Tom,
Do you know if a leicavit (of any versions) would work on a KS15-4 or M2-R?
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
With the K15S/M2R you need to install either the M4Mot or a M2 shaft. There are no provisions for a drive in these two models. They are reasonably easy to modify though as you are not hampered by the film counter of the M3/M4. Just a straight M2 drive shaft - or if you want to keep the "tulip" loading system - a drive from a M4M/Mot.
For the newer Leicavit or Rapidwinder you need to have the drive from a M4P/M6 installed as it use the intermediate drive of the camera. Sherry or DAG can do that easily.
For the newer Leicavit or Rapidwinder you need to have the drive from a M4P/M6 installed as it use the intermediate drive of the camera. Sherry or DAG can do that easily.
aoresteen
Well-known
As a side note Don Goldberg converted my M3 to use the M-Winder. He also converted it to M4 loading. The Leicavit M will work as well.
Leica M3-MOT with Canon 50mm f/1.2 & Vented Shade
Leica M3-MOT with Canon 50mm f/1.2 & Vented Shade
