M4-P Vs M6 advice please

[allmodjohns@mac.com]

Hi there, I'm looking to make the jump from a Bessa-R to Leica since I'm getting fed up with the short EBL with my fast CV lenses. I was hoping I could get a bit of advice from members based on the two cameras that are available to me and my budget.

I've had a search in the archives but nothing has come up.

Anyway, I'm looking at either an M4-P in 'user' condition (some light marks and scuffs, a ding near the frame counter and the leatherette has been glued down on the back at some point but done well) for £490 or a M6 .72 in comparable 'user' condition for £690.

My question would be, if these are both in comparable 'user' condition and I'm comfortable with sunny 16 or whipping out my Sekonic 308 to meter am I better saving £200 and going for the M4-P or is there anything other than the lightmeter that £200 will get me with the M6?

I'm leaning towards the M4-P but thought I'd get some other opinions.

Cheers
John

P.S. User condition doesn't bother me as I'm not looking for resale value or for something I'd be worried carrying into the thick of it incase I knock £££s off the value and both cameras are guaranteed for a year.

 

[mr_phillip]

Other than the meter and some minor cosmetic details, the M4-P and M6 are identical cameras. The only advantage the M6 would have is that it's a little less old.

However, if you don't mind the odd ding, Ffordes up near Inverness currently have a very tempting mechanically perfect M4 for £449.

 

[dshfoto]

Here is an interesting article about the cameras' top plate.
http://nemeng.com/leica/042b.shtml

 

[allmodjohns@mac.com]

Thanks for that, I didn't even see those M4s when i was looking at Ffordes the other day. I did have my hear set on a black camera to avoid anything noticable and shiney when I'm doing reportage/set photography but those prices are better than most I've seen for an M4.

Would I be right in thinking that the M4s are generally considered to be better made than either the M4-P or the M6s? It's in my head that M4s are all brass etc and the last 'classic' Ms before the M5 and Canada.

Thanks
John.

 

[Al Kaplan]

First off, CHROME CAMERAS are not any more visible than black cameras. It's more a matter of how YOU handle the camera and act when you're shooting.

If you get an M6 you'll feel obligated to get the meter fixed if it stops working (and they do). You'll be without your camera for awhile. Meterless cameras never get broken meters. The meter in the camera isn't worth 200 lbs.

 

[mr_phillip]

Yeah, the M4 is generally felt to be the last of the 'golden age' Leicas after the M2 and M3. To be honest though, the M4-P and M6 are plenty well enough built for most folks needs, but I put that link up because, in truth, I don't think the prices you quote are exactly great for user examples of those bodies. I'd expect an M6 to be mint and an M4-P to be Ex+ or better at those prices.

 

[George S.]

Check around carefully, there are plenty available in better than 'user' condition. Some seller's 'user' grade is also a euphemism for "butt ugly and barely working". A little patience and everything you would ever need photographically shows up right here at RFF. ( and a lot that you don't absolutely need but will buy anyway )

Since you say you are perfectly comfortable going meterless, go for the M4-P or M4. If you buy an M6 for 200 pounds, dollars, whatever, more than the M4-P, and the meter breaks, even if you never used it, it will kill the M6's resale value for you unless you then spend more money to get it fixed.

 

[Pablito]

I have M6 and M4-P but use my two M6's more because of the meter even thought the M4-P feels a little smoother (maybe ,this is really subjective and unimportant to me)

If you plan on using a 75mm lens then you should know the framelines for this lens are MUCH better in the M6, all you get in the M4-P is little corners, not framelines at all.

As for the meter breaking, so what? If it breaks get it fixed like you would with something on your car. Unless you specifically want the simplicity. "Up to you" as the lady said that late night in Bangkok.

 

[ferider]

Welcome to the forum.

Early M4Ps had different framelines and different finish (brass top and bottom) compared to later M4Ps which are, except for meter, very similar to the M6 (zinc plated top and bottom, smaller 35 and 50mm framelines).

If the M4P you are considering is an early one (recessed windows) I recommend to get it over the M6. I would prefer it even over the classic M4 at FFordes since I like 28 and 75mm framelines.

Roland.

 

[nightfly]

I've never shot an M6, or any other Leica for that matter besides my M4-P. It's the perfect camera for me. I like not having a meter and I like the 28mm framelines. Never felt the need for another body or a meter.

I also like black cameras, whether they are less conspicuous or not. I've taped over everything that's not black with gaffers tape and it seems to work for me. Probably more to avoid other camera geeks than being spotted by normal people. Chrome cameras look "classic" and I would assume provoke more questions. A black camera used quickly is harder to identify from afar.

 

[Nikon Bob]

John

I have both an M4-P early model and an M4 and can't say that in use one is smoother to use than the other. The M4 has been CLA'd and the M4-P not. So in everyday use I don't think you would notice a difference. If you like 28mm lenses the M4-P has framelines for them and the M4 will need a aux viewfinder. Condition being the same I would get the cheaper one. If you are used to an in camera meter and either don't want to carry a hand meter/use sunny 16 then the M6 might be the way to go. On a much lighter note, if you have a Canadian M4 I would gladly trade you even for a Wetzler M4. Canadian manufacture of Leica cameras goes back as far as the IIIg IIRC.

Bob

 

[maddoc]

As Roland (ferider) says. 🙂

I had all of them (except the M4-2), two M4-P, two M6, two M4 (and some other M Leicas) and from my experience, the "better build myth" of the older German (Wetzlar) made Leicas has no practical relevance.

A well serviced, older M4-P with the recessed windows is still the best M-Leica you can buy. No electronic problems, full set of 6 framelines (with the 50mm frame-lines in the size of the older cameras), Vulcanite covering, brass-top plate, steel-gears and the possibility to use a Rapid-Winder, Leicavit or motor.

 

[notturtle]

First off, CHROME CAMERAS are not any more visible than black cameras. It's more a matter of how YOU handle the camera and act when you're shooting.

If you get an M6 you'll feel obligated to get the meter fixed if it stops working (and they do). You'll be without your camera for awhile. Meterless cameras never get broken meters. The meter in the camera isn't worth 200 lbs.

I am not sure I agree with the first comment. I feel black cameras do stand out less and, according to my experiences in Afghanistan, people believe my silver chrome MP to be 'a very expensive camera' whereas the black attract no interest at all. I do agree that your behaviour is the more important issue, but all things being equal, chrome cameras do reflect sunlight, glint and gleam and I personally would rather not have that. Seeing as black certainly does not have these issues, whether imagined or not, black is IMHO the natural choice.

I would personally get the M6 as I find in camera meters convenient.

I think the poster can do better on price. I bought a mint 0.85 M6 classsic from Red Dot for 799 GBP, so 650 for user regular 0.72 is on the high side if you ask me. I would sniff about Red Dot and see what comes in. If you are prepared to pay a little more you will get a realy clean camera.

 

[Kozhe]

As a funny note...

Some weeks ago the brother of my gf came with us to Barcelona for some days, and he was amazed with all the cameras I have. I told him I want to sell 90% of what I have and just keep one or 2 of them. And when he saw the black M6 next to the chrome M2 and M3 he said: "Hey, I´m sure this is one of the first you´re gonna get rid of eh??"

So I guess black Ms look cheaper and less attractive to some people!

M4-p vs M6 is not a big deal. They are the same camera with and without the light meter. Small differences like one being smoother than another is more a individual issue and you can´t generalize. They both are great cameras from any point of view. I just prefer the flare-free vf of a M3, but the M6 has a more modern feel.

Even if you like (I do) sunny f16 and eye-metering it´s good to have the meter. Moreover the M6 is still a mechanic camera so if you run out of battery you can still use it normally (as a M4-p I guess)

I have some M bodies I´m considering to sell, including the M6, so pm me if you want and I´ll let you know shapes and prices 🙂

 

[shayallen]

I just got one of the older M4-P's and really love the feel and size of it... My M7 has been staying at home scene it came in!

 

[maddoc]

I just got one of the older M4-P's and really love the feel and size of it... My M7 has been staying at home scene it came in!

Or .... M7 for color-slide film and M4-P for BW. 🙂 Two-bodies / one lens set-up. 😀

 

[notturtle]

It seems to me that smoothness is down to individual bodies altho there may be broad trends between models.

My M6 .085 classic is the loudest by a touch, but has the smoothest release of the metered Ms. The MPs are quieter, with one particularly quiet, along with my M3. I guess this is what happens when things are hand made and adjusted!

FWIW I have heard of the M6 TTLs being a touch louder than some of the other bodies and seeing a my M6 0.85 is from 1998 right when the TTl came about, I would not be surprised if there is some truth to this as there may have been late tweaks made to teh last classics that also affected the TTls making them a touch louder. It does not matter a damn, but there is a slighly higher pitched resonance in there with teh clunk. The others just have a clunk. As for rewind, I feel no real difference with the M6/MPs. If it is there, it is not enough for me to care about. The Mps are heavier and feel a touch more teutonic, but the M6 still feels bloody well made. The Mp finder is better tho... Not night and day, but better. I have noticed that whiteout with the M6 is (rare) and largely rectified by re-centering/adjusting the eye.

 

[allmodjohns@mac.com]

Thanks for the replies everyone. All very helpful.

I think I'm in agreement with those of you who are saying that I can probably do better with the price/condition combo. I have come across a M4-2 in EXC condition, just 2 dings on the top plate that I can't even see in pictures and described as mechanically excellent and in full working order, with a 6 months guarantee from Red Dot Cameras for under £500.

BUT it has a 1480 xxx serial number, which is a serial number to avoid according to the M4-2 article at Leica FAQ. I know that not every one of those early cameras is a buggy one. Tempting.

 

[chrishayton]

hmm seems very expensive ( the m4p and m42) i payed less than £400 for my m4-p 6 month ago from real camera company in manchester ( brilliant shop ) and it was in lovely condition with a bit of vulcanite missing that i now replaced with griptac from camera leather and a minute ding in the baseplate.
the m6 you mentioned is better priced and a newer camera

Ring Real camera company in manchester and see what they have in, great service and im sure they could take a photo and email you and post it out (not 100% on this though as im local to it) 0161 907 3236

 

[allmodjohns@mac.com]

Thanks Chris. Phoned Real Camera, they'd sold a M4-P two hours before I called fpr £400! Seemed a lot more helpful than some of the places I've called though, the guy spent about five minutes talking to me about what I was after to see if he could help me find something that suited.