kevin m
Veteran
Wayne, I'm going to be joining you as an M5 owner as well as a VI-T owner. 
I finally caved into temptation and bought the M5 Leif was selling here. Should be arriving early in the New Year.
I've owned several M bodies before, but I haven't so much as seen an M5, never mind held one, so it's a bit of a gamble. I was going to go with either a Bessa R3A, or an M2/3, but neither option was entirely attractive. Part of the appeal of rangefinders, for me, is the build quality of the old cameras, and the M5 seems to have that, plus it has the convenience of the meter, so I'm hoping it's the best of both worlds: The old-world build quality of the classic Leicas with the convenience of a meter.
I'll post a pic with the Canon 50/1.2 mounted as soon as it arrives.
I finally caved into temptation and bought the M5 Leif was selling here. Should be arriving early in the New Year. I've owned several M bodies before, but I haven't so much as seen an M5, never mind held one, so it's a bit of a gamble. I was going to go with either a Bessa R3A, or an M2/3, but neither option was entirely attractive. Part of the appeal of rangefinders, for me, is the build quality of the old cameras, and the M5 seems to have that, plus it has the convenience of the meter, so I'm hoping it's the best of both worlds: The old-world build quality of the classic Leicas with the convenience of a meter.
I'll post a pic with the Canon 50/1.2 mounted as soon as it arrives.
Bully
Established
Kevin,
you can find the "old" quality in the same perfection (if not better because of CNC-technology) in the M6, M6 TTL, M7, MP and M8. Please feel free to read the articles for example of Erwin Puts about the manufacturing of the M3 to the MP (it was printed in a LFI in 2004) etc.
You will see that the fairy tale of the "good old built times" is nothing more than a fairy tale. Without a doupt the M3 to M5 are very well made. Why? They are more or less handmade. But there is also much room to do things the wrong way. "Handmade" can be far behind "perfection". It always depends on the skills of the worker. For example take a look at the hotshoe of the flash. Compare the gap dimensions with the modern M´s. You will see that in the past decades there was not always everything well made.
Today these subjective "handmade" aspects are gone, today the CNC-machines do their work, and they do their work very well. In aspects of "perfection" they do a much better job than a human being. This thruth lies in the nature of the humans.
I want you to keep these aspects in mind, everything else is nothing more than a fairy tale.
Greetings Bully
you can find the "old" quality in the same perfection (if not better because of CNC-technology) in the M6, M6 TTL, M7, MP and M8. Please feel free to read the articles for example of Erwin Puts about the manufacturing of the M3 to the MP (it was printed in a LFI in 2004) etc.
You will see that the fairy tale of the "good old built times" is nothing more than a fairy tale. Without a doupt the M3 to M5 are very well made. Why? They are more or less handmade. But there is also much room to do things the wrong way. "Handmade" can be far behind "perfection". It always depends on the skills of the worker. For example take a look at the hotshoe of the flash. Compare the gap dimensions with the modern M´s. You will see that in the past decades there was not always everything well made.
Today these subjective "handmade" aspects are gone, today the CNC-machines do their work, and they do their work very well. In aspects of "perfection" they do a much better job than a human being. This thruth lies in the nature of the humans.
I want you to keep these aspects in mind, everything else is nothing more than a fairy tale.
Greetings Bully
ERV
Well-known
tripod
Well-known
ERV said:
Very nice. Too bad they're only hand-made.
ERV
Well-known
tripod said:Very nice. Too bad they're only hand-made.
I agree.
I'm a little nuts about the M5.
Why three? Why not, I say.
venchka
Veteran
Oh good grief
Oh good grief
Now I will be totally envious!
Oh good grief
Now I will be totally envious!
kevin m said:Wayne, I'm going to be joining you as an M5 owner as well as a VI-T owner.
I've owned several M bodies before, but I haven't so much as seen an M5, never mind held one, so it's a bit of a gamble. I was going to go with either a Bessa R3A, or an M2/3, but neither option was entirely attractive. Part of the appeal of rangefinders, for me, is the build quality of the old cameras, and the M5 seems to have that, plus it has the convenience of the meter, so I'm hoping it's the best of both worlds: The old-world build quality of the classic Leicas with the convenience of a meter.
I'll post a pic with the Canon 50/1.2 mounted as soon as it arrives.
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
I hate to say this, but comments like this betray a profound ignorance of the manufacturing process. Cutters and dies wear. Machines goof. Who watches the machine? Who judges when a cutter or die has gone out of spec?
Ororaro
Well-known
JNewell said:
That's why people still rely on horses instead of cars to go from A to B, right?
To answer your question: Quality control.
V
varjag
Guest
I've seen CNC argument being raised more than once in arguments of precision. CNC per se does not give you better manufacturing precision that is possible with human-operated machine. It does however make manufacturing more repeatable for any achievable degree of precision, simplifies QC and frees from involvement of qualified human labor. Ultimately it makes items produced more affordable.
But precision mechanical manufacturing predates wide usage of CNC by decades, and very much reached its current heights during WW2. To put it into perspective, humanity became space-faring in 1957, and there you need all precision you get.
But precision mechanical manufacturing predates wide usage of CNC by decades, and very much reached its current heights during WW2. To put it into perspective, humanity became space-faring in 1957, and there you need all precision you get.
dreamsandart
Well-known
Have you heard the internet myth that CNC machining makes a better M / lenses ?
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kevin m
Veteran
Bully, I've owned an M2, an M6, and four TTL bodies and I have to disagree with you. I've enjoyed all the Leica bodies I've owned, but there simply IS something special about the older bodies. A person can pick them up and tell in an instant that Leica was throwing every bit of their design and manufacturing skill into those cameras. No doubt the later cameras function better because of the improvements you mentioned, but there's something more pedestrian about them, too, as if they simply weren't trying as hard.
Bully
Established
Of course there are many different opinions on this theme.
I don´t want to polarize with my description. But it should show the different manufacturing methods in the last fifty years. After reading many articles about the fabrication of the Leica it is more than obvious that todays methods have many advantages in making a product "perfect". Without a doupt the machines must be configurated by humans but at the end all products have (nearly) the same high definition standard.
During the fabrication of the M3 there was one worker who had to do his part to complete the camera. He always did the same thing all the day. It was a specialist in his own categorie. After his work was done the second worker fulfilled his own job to bring the camera to completition. When the third worker realized that the first or second did something wrong the camera had to go back to this person to correct the work. The same procedure began again.
The problem with this production-circle was that not every worker had the same motivation and precision all the day all the week all the year.
Today many parts in the production are replaced by machines, which are computer controlled. But many parts are in the hands of humans (women´s hands because of their precision), for example to paint all the numbers and letters on the body.
There was a very interesting article in an older LFI-magazine in 2002. The photographer Mark Brandenburgh describes the way of the bodies in the factory.
Bully
I don´t want to polarize with my description. But it should show the different manufacturing methods in the last fifty years. After reading many articles about the fabrication of the Leica it is more than obvious that todays methods have many advantages in making a product "perfect". Without a doupt the machines must be configurated by humans but at the end all products have (nearly) the same high definition standard.
During the fabrication of the M3 there was one worker who had to do his part to complete the camera. He always did the same thing all the day. It was a specialist in his own categorie. After his work was done the second worker fulfilled his own job to bring the camera to completition. When the third worker realized that the first or second did something wrong the camera had to go back to this person to correct the work. The same procedure began again.
The problem with this production-circle was that not every worker had the same motivation and precision all the day all the week all the year.
Today many parts in the production are replaced by machines, which are computer controlled. But many parts are in the hands of humans (women´s hands because of their precision), for example to paint all the numbers and letters on the body.
There was a very interesting article in an older LFI-magazine in 2002. The photographer Mark Brandenburgh describes the way of the bodies in the factory.
Bully
JNewell
Leica M Recidivist
NB23 said:
Cars were made long before anyone dreamed of CNC. Varjag's points are right - modern processes aid repeatability, but only if all of the production elements are carefully supervised and maintained. There's nothing about CNC that makes a cutter or a die last longer. Poor QC is still poor QC, regardless of how a production line is organized and operated. If there were some magic to CNC, people would be writing webpages praising current production and advising everyone to get rid of their poor quality M4, M2 and M3 bodies...
kevin m
Veteran
Bully, I don't disagree with you about this; it's pretty clear that modern machining methods help eliminate the drudgery factor that likely led to many errors in the old days. But I still contend that hand made products have a life of their own that simply can't be duplicated by machine-made products. I don't think that always makes a given product "better," but it certainly has an appeal all its own.
venchka
Veteran
Aye!
Aye!
The world is full of craftsman turning out beautiful products. Furniture. Boats. Bicycles. Pottery. Glass. Photographs. Myriad others. All by hand. CNC replaced bodies, benefits, wages, overhead. CNC didn't automatically replace quality. The materials are different too. Zinc for brass is just one example.
No worries. It's all good. Fortunately we all have choices.
Aye!
kevin m said:Bully, I don't disagree with you about this; it's pretty clear that modern machining methods help eliminate the drudgery factor that likely led to many errors in the old days. But I still contend that hand made products have a life of their own that simply can't be duplicated by machine-made products. I don't think that always makes a given product "better," but it certainly has an appeal all its own.
The world is full of craftsman turning out beautiful products. Furniture. Boats. Bicycles. Pottery. Glass. Photographs. Myriad others. All by hand. CNC replaced bodies, benefits, wages, overhead. CNC didn't automatically replace quality. The materials are different too. Zinc for brass is just one example.
No worries. It's all good. Fortunately we all have choices.
kevin m
Veteran
Interesting times, right? I like the convenience of modern DSLRs, but I love hand craftsmanship and rangefinders, too. I'm really looking forward to trying the Canon 50/1.2 with the excellent Leica M viewfinder of the M5!
No need to be jealous, Wayne, you have two sweet M5's of your own! Just be patient and a nice 50/1.2 will fall in your lap!
venchka
Veteran
It will have to
It will have to
The only way I'll get a Canon 50/1.2 is if it falls in my lap. I'm through buying hardware. My money is going to expendables now.
It will have to
kevin m said:
The only way I'll get a Canon 50/1.2 is if it falls in my lap. I'm through buying hardware. My money is going to expendables now.
kevin m
Veteran
Thanks, Fred. I have a tendency to love the underdog, so I think the M5 will be a good fit. Plus, I'm about 6'6", so I don't think the size will be a problem, either.
I'm looking forward to using a rangefinder purely for pleasure. Before, I was shooting weddings, trying to make them be a jack-of-all-trades camera, using flash and all that, and that took the fun out of it. This time, I plan to accept the camera as it is and use it accordingly.
I'm looking forward to using a rangefinder purely for pleasure. Before, I was shooting weddings, trying to make them be a jack-of-all-trades camera, using flash and all that, and that took the fun out of it. This time, I plan to accept the camera as it is and use it accordingly.
dreamsandart
Well-known
There is something to be said for those skilled craftsman/woman that made Leicas back in the Wetzlar days. Although they may have been working with parts that didn't fit together just right to start, they did fit them together just right. I've bought new M4s, an M5, SL, SL2 and sold more than a few while I was going through collage and never had a problem 'out of the box'.
Not so with cameras after the M5 era; personally an M4-2 with a rangefinder window that was not glued in place, an M6 with a flash sync that didn't work, and my new MP with a less than smooth shutter release (which I hope gets better with use). I wont even go into new Leica lenses compared to the well made lenses of the 'golden era' of the 50s/60s...
New manufacturing techniques including CNC machining may give more precisely made parts to begin with, but it still takes skill to get it right. I guess we can just thank our computer Gods and that uniformity that can be achieved now otherwise we'd really be in trouble!
The M5 was the last of the well made Leicas with ''handmade skill'.
Not so with cameras after the M5 era; personally an M4-2 with a rangefinder window that was not glued in place, an M6 with a flash sync that didn't work, and my new MP with a less than smooth shutter release (which I hope gets better with use). I wont even go into new Leica lenses compared to the well made lenses of the 'golden era' of the 50s/60s...
New manufacturing techniques including CNC machining may give more precisely made parts to begin with, but it still takes skill to get it right. I guess we can just thank our computer Gods and that uniformity that can be achieved now otherwise we'd really be in trouble!
The M5 was the last of the well made Leicas with ''handmade skill'.
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V
varjag
Guest
It is possible to have 100% interchangeable parts without CNC of course. It is all a matter of process and quality control. One very common example would be weapon manufacture: in a mass-produced assault rifle not only small precise parts are interchangeable, but big precise parts as well - which is no small feat.