snaggs
Established
Whilst on holidays, I found myself having to use the flash in a number of situations. Obviously I had to use a flash meter etc for all of this, which was a bit annoying and really slows things down.
Im wondering if I should get a M6 TTL and SF20 flash.. How well does the flash on the Leica work? I understand it has a HP mode enabling sync at all speeds?
Daniel.
Im wondering if I should get a M6 TTL and SF20 flash.. How well does the flash on the Leica work? I understand it has a HP mode enabling sync at all speeds?
Daniel.
I believe that HP mode is on the M7. It is not on the M6TTL.
The TTL flash control works fine though on the M6. Why did you need to use a flash meter with an M6? I have never used a flash meter, ever, and have lots of cameras without onboard flash control. You may just need more practice with your flash, manual or automatic, you don't need to use a flash meter.
The TTL flash control works fine though on the M6. Why did you need to use a flash meter with an M6? I have never used a flash meter, ever, and have lots of cameras without onboard flash control. You may just need more practice with your flash, manual or automatic, you don't need to use a flash meter.
SolaresLarrave
My M5s need red dots!
Flash meter? Sounds a bit like overkill... any regular automatic flash would do the job.
Now, the M6TTL has a sync speed of 1/50 (and lower). The nice thing about using this body with the SF20 is that the flash will regulate its output based on its TTL reading of the light. An automatic flash does the same, only it reads the light through a small sensor in the flash body.
I think a relatively recent Vivitar 283 or 285 will do the flash job for you. Despite its being larger than the camera, it has a tiltable head and it's automatic, so there won't be any more long procedures before shooting family holiday photos.
Now, the M6TTL has a sync speed of 1/50 (and lower). The nice thing about using this body with the SF20 is that the flash will regulate its output based on its TTL reading of the light. An automatic flash does the same, only it reads the light through a small sensor in the flash body.
I think a relatively recent Vivitar 283 or 285 will do the flash job for you. Despite its being larger than the camera, it has a tiltable head and it's automatic, so there won't be any more long procedures before shooting family holiday photos.
snaggs
Established
I have a Nikon SB600 which only operates manual if not on a TTL body (i.e. no automatic), so I needed a flash meter. So I guess your right, I could probably get a automatic flash, though Im not sure how well that will work if your bouncing the flash.
Thanks for the replys.
Daniel.
Thanks for the replys.
Daniel.
R
Roman
Guest
Just get an automatic flash, works well with bouncing, too! I recommend Metz (an 40MZ or 54MZ - I love those extra secondary flash - great for filling in the unavoidable shadows in eye sockets when using bounced flash), though Vvitar 283s are nice, too.
As you said, a flash meter is too much of a hassle to use outside of a studio setting.
Roman
As you said, a flash meter is too much of a hassle to use outside of a studio setting.
Roman
peter_n
Veteran
I have an SF20 and I've only used it occasionally for fill-in outside. To me it works nicely with the M6TTL because I just stick it on there and everything is taken care of through the lens. The only problem (as mentioned above) is that it doesn't bounce. But it is very small and light and doesn't overbalance the camera. I like it.
Mike Richards
Well-known
If I understand correctly, you have an M6 and are considering upgrading to an M6TTL. If so, the TTL version adds very marginal improvement for flash operation. If you set up an automatic flash as others have described, the sensor on the flash does the job fine. The camera sensor system in the M6TTL will allow you one or two fewer steps when setting up the flash, and you will get actual metering through the lens. This can be an advantage when you have a filter on the lens -- you don't have to think about offsetting the ISO or aprerture to compensate for the filter factor. All very marginal, IMHO. I also have the SF20. But I've used the bounce flash on my Digilux 2 so often with such good results, that I wish the SF20 had a tilt head. To me, that's much more important. Better to spend your camera upgrade money on a nice tilt-head automatic flash that will work with your M6.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Remember also that the shutter speed dial goes the wrong way on the tt (also on the M7)l, so if you've used the M6 much, this could prove awkward.
Cheers,
Roger
Cheers,
Roger
Mike Richards
Well-known
Roger Hicks said:
Roger,
I like the way you characterize the M6TTL and M7 dials as going the "wrong way." Stated like a real purist since all the other M's go the "right way." But it brings up some other points about the M6 vs M6TTL. The TTL is a bit taller (~2 mm), and the meter is 1 EV more sensitive. The shutter dial is a bit larger (which may be important if you have lost finger strength due to arthritis or other maladies), and the direction it turns may seem more intuitive in relation to the meter arrows in the viewfinder for a right handed person in that you move your forefinger in the direction of the arrow to achieve correct exposure. I think this is debatable; I have no confusion with my MP, where my thumb goes the direction of the arrows. It's just a matter of getting used to it.
M
mad_boy
Guest
There is one main advantage of using the TTL system above an automatic flash which is not mentioned above.
All the automatic flashes have one or more automatic settings.
Each of these settings prescribes a certain diafram number (typically 5,6) at a certain film speed. For example my Osram C180 (great flash for 10 Euro) requires F5,6 for 200 ASA film.
At this setting it will give a certain working range (for the osram at 5,6 up to 4,5m.
As a consequence using these kind of flashes limits the diaframs you can choose.
The TTL sysem works with any diagram setting. This can be used to your advantage. My SF24D for example goes up to 19!! meters at F1,4 but can also handle f16 (giving a range of only 1,7 Meters). Non TTL systems could do some of this, but that requires manual setting of the flash and quite some calculations.
I think that the TTL is a great advantage if one uses flashes regularly. Why els has it been implemented in all modern camera's?
If you buy a Laice flash, I would advise the SF 24D. It is more powerful than the SF20 and more suited for the M7 and the Digilux 2 (and future ones?), and not so much more expensive. I like it very much. It is small and light. Main disadvantages is that it used odd batteries that are not available at every corner-shop (but I do not know what the SF20 takes) and that the flash does not tilt.
Mad_boy.
All the automatic flashes have one or more automatic settings.
Each of these settings prescribes a certain diafram number (typically 5,6) at a certain film speed. For example my Osram C180 (great flash for 10 Euro) requires F5,6 for 200 ASA film.
At this setting it will give a certain working range (for the osram at 5,6 up to 4,5m.
As a consequence using these kind of flashes limits the diaframs you can choose.
The TTL sysem works with any diagram setting. This can be used to your advantage. My SF24D for example goes up to 19!! meters at F1,4 but can also handle f16 (giving a range of only 1,7 Meters). Non TTL systems could do some of this, but that requires manual setting of the flash and quite some calculations.
I think that the TTL is a great advantage if one uses flashes regularly. Why els has it been implemented in all modern camera's?
If you buy a Laice flash, I would advise the SF 24D. It is more powerful than the SF20 and more suited for the M7 and the Digilux 2 (and future ones?), and not so much more expensive. I like it very much. It is small and light. Main disadvantages is that it used odd batteries that are not available at every corner-shop (but I do not know what the SF20 takes) and that the flash does not tilt.
Mad_boy.
Ben Z
Veteran
mad_boy said:
The SF24D that you recommend has all apertures from f/2.8-f/11 available for non-TTL use, so you really only give up maybe 10% of the flexibility of TTL.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Mike,
Yes; I use an MP that goes the right way: clockwise for faster, like every other Leica except M6ttl and M7.
Clearly, neither direction is technologically superior, and the M6ttl and M7 suit the arrow in the viewfinder better. But there are an awful lot of screw Leicas, M Leicas and Voigtlanders (and a few ZIs -- more to follow, I hope) where the dial goes the 'right' (other) way. I fully take your points about size, leverage, etc., but still believe that the M6ttl and M7 are abominations in the sight of the Lord unless you never use any other Leica, Bessa or ZI.
I'll give you an exact analogy. On all modern stick-shift cars the accelerator is on the right, the clutch on the left and the brake in the middle. This was not fully standardized until the late 20s or early 30s; some cars had the brake and accelerator transposed.
A standard trick at the Police Driving School at Hendon, when a young copper became too cocky about his driving ability, was to ask him to do a circuit on the Lagonda, with the accelerator in the middle.
I experienced something similar when I borrowed an Enfield Bullet in India in 1990. My BMW R100RS (like most modern bikes and even Harley-Davidsons) has the brake on the right and the gear shift on the left. Pedal movement is up for up, down for down. On the Bullet the brake is left and the gearshift right, and it's down for up.
If you use one camera/drive one car/ride one motorcycle a LOT, and are used to a standard layout, the 'non-standard' way is a problem. The same is true if you want to go from 'non-standard' to 'standard'. You need to be VERY, VERY good or pretty inexperienced to be able to switch between one and the other without problems.
I'm not that good but I have driven/ridden tens of thousands (indeed, hundreds of thousands) of miles with the conventional gear layouts, and taken thousands or more likely tens of thousands of pics with Leicas that go the 'right' way. Hence my prejudice.
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)
Yes; I use an MP that goes the right way: clockwise for faster, like every other Leica except M6ttl and M7.
Clearly, neither direction is technologically superior, and the M6ttl and M7 suit the arrow in the viewfinder better. But there are an awful lot of screw Leicas, M Leicas and Voigtlanders (and a few ZIs -- more to follow, I hope) where the dial goes the 'right' (other) way. I fully take your points about size, leverage, etc., but still believe that the M6ttl and M7 are abominations in the sight of the Lord unless you never use any other Leica, Bessa or ZI.
I'll give you an exact analogy. On all modern stick-shift cars the accelerator is on the right, the clutch on the left and the brake in the middle. This was not fully standardized until the late 20s or early 30s; some cars had the brake and accelerator transposed.
A standard trick at the Police Driving School at Hendon, when a young copper became too cocky about his driving ability, was to ask him to do a circuit on the Lagonda, with the accelerator in the middle.
I experienced something similar when I borrowed an Enfield Bullet in India in 1990. My BMW R100RS (like most modern bikes and even Harley-Davidsons) has the brake on the right and the gear shift on the left. Pedal movement is up for up, down for down. On the Bullet the brake is left and the gearshift right, and it's down for up.
If you use one camera/drive one car/ride one motorcycle a LOT, and are used to a standard layout, the 'non-standard' way is a problem. The same is true if you want to go from 'non-standard' to 'standard'. You need to be VERY, VERY good or pretty inexperienced to be able to switch between one and the other without problems.
I'm not that good but I have driven/ridden tens of thousands (indeed, hundreds of thousands) of miles with the conventional gear layouts, and taken thousands or more likely tens of thousands of pics with Leicas that go the 'right' way. Hence my prejudice.
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)
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M
mad_boy
Guest
Ben Z said:
True, but that requires additional steps insetting up the system:
- Check that the flash in on correct iso value
- Copy the F-No setting from your lens to the flash (inching up/down with buttons).
Mad_boy
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Well Roger, if one confuses the handles on a motorbike or the pedals on a car, the results are likely to be slightly more spectacular than turning the exposure dial the wrong way. I must confess that I only noticed that it turned the other way when I read "complaints" on this site :bang: And I've been using a large number of M's for over 30 years.... It is not much of a deal to me 
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Deasr Jaap,
More spectacular? Well, I've handled it OK with the bikes (though not cars) even in a Madras rush-hour, and I'd rather ride a Bullet (I've never driven a centre-accelerator car) than shoot an M6ttl or M7: a stop OVER where I want a stop UNDER seems pretty spectacular to me!
Then again, sone people are much less sensitive than others to this problem. It worries my wife Frances Schultz less than it worriies me and clearly it worries you less than her.
Then again, how much film do you put through your Leicas? Frances and I put close to 90 rolls through our Ms and Bessas in 4 weeks on our last trip to Eastern Europe in June/July 2005. At that point there's a certain amount I do by memory and feel -- especially after 35+ years of Leica use.
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)
More spectacular? Well, I've handled it OK with the bikes (though not cars) even in a Madras rush-hour, and I'd rather ride a Bullet (I've never driven a centre-accelerator car) than shoot an M6ttl or M7: a stop OVER where I want a stop UNDER seems pretty spectacular to me!
Then again, sone people are much less sensitive than others to this problem. It worries my wife Frances Schultz less than it worriies me and clearly it worries you less than her.
Then again, how much film do you put through your Leicas? Frances and I put close to 90 rolls through our Ms and Bessas in 4 weeks on our last trip to Eastern Europe in June/July 2005. At that point there's a certain amount I do by memory and feel -- especially after 35+ years of Leica use.
Cheers,
Roger (www.rogerandfrances.com)
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Fred
Feline Great
Roger,
I take it that your usual method of exposure correction is my a swift move of the shutter dial (IMHO it should be as well), in which case the 'correct' rotation of the dial is paramount. Maybe Frances and others change exposure more by adjusting the aperture so this seems less than an issue.
I suppose its like getting used to turning the throttle on the bar of a motorcycle a certain direction when trying to increase speed and then finding your slowing down, now that could really hurt.
I take it that your usual method of exposure correction is my a swift move of the shutter dial (IMHO it should be as well), in which case the 'correct' rotation of the dial is paramount. Maybe Frances and others change exposure more by adjusting the aperture so this seems less than an issue.
I suppose its like getting used to turning the throttle on the bar of a motorcycle a certain direction when trying to increase speed and then finding your slowing down, now that could really hurt.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Hi Roger!
I know what you mean; on holiday I used to take about 100 rolls with me; nowadays I must confess that has been reduced to about a third, as I have digital with me as well. I guess that is the explanation for our different attitudes, I always had two systems with me, M and R, so I am used to switching between camera's. It is even worse now, as I have my Leica M, the Digilux 2 and for tele and macro a Canon dslr. Doing that for years on end probably makes you insensitive to differences in camera's
I know what you mean; on holiday I used to take about 100 rolls with me; nowadays I must confess that has been reduced to about a third, as I have digital with me as well. I guess that is the explanation for our different attitudes, I always had two systems with me, M and R, so I am used to switching between camera's. It is even worse now, as I have my Leica M, the Digilux 2 and for tele and macro a Canon dslr. Doing that for years on end probably makes you insensitive to differences in camera's
Having early-on carried Leica M2 simultaneiously with a Pentax SLR, whose rotations for shutter, aperture and focus are all opposite each other, I'm used to there being a difference. The prospect that scares me much more is having to drive on the left in frantic traffic from the right side of the car! Having to deal in those circumstances with "backwards" motorcycle controls would surely lead to disaster.