Bob Ross
Well-known
That aspect probably was most common for Large Format users, but we didn't hear the mutterings, because they were into how far they could tilt,swing and shift and cleaning noose grease from their ground glassjaapv said:
Bob
rolo
Established
Sorry to go so far back in the thread, but this
" Leica is not targeting the professional market, that is not where the money is. Some professionals will buy, some won't. But there are far more serious amateur and hobbyist users out there who love Leica and rangefinders, and it is THOSE people they are going after."
... has to be a load of tosh !
Leica desparately needs this camera to be adopted by the pro shooters. They hold the key to the market and lead the way for the masses.
Pro shooters I know & read of like digital capture, but hate the size of the Canon outfiit with a vengeance. Why would any 'Magnum ' photographer, et al, not look seriously at an M8. Errr... Dunno? They don't all go around with 28-200 f2.8 zooms for their undercover stories. DOH.
" Leica is not targeting the professional market, that is not where the money is. Some professionals will buy, some won't. But there are far more serious amateur and hobbyist users out there who love Leica and rangefinders, and it is THOSE people they are going after."
... has to be a load of tosh !
Leica desparately needs this camera to be adopted by the pro shooters. They hold the key to the market and lead the way for the masses.
Pro shooters I know & read of like digital capture, but hate the size of the Canon outfiit with a vengeance. Why would any 'Magnum ' photographer, et al, not look seriously at an M8. Errr... Dunno? They don't all go around with 28-200 f2.8 zooms for their undercover stories. DOH.
Peter55
Leica M5 & Summilux User
Honestly for me I think the 1.33 crop probably will not be as comfortable to use with Leica's existing lenses as a full frame sensor would be. I can't say for sure becase I don't have any 1.33 cropped sensor type cameras. But I do have two 1.6 crop cameras and one full frame digital slr camera. The full frame DSLR is my favorite. All my lenes just feel comfortable to me. I guess this is just what I am used to having - full frame.
I also have an M5 and six film 35mm slr's. So again this is what I am used to - full frame.
Also another poster said somthing important. He has a fast 35mm f/1.4 so even with the 1.33 crop he will have a fast almost normal lens. But he asked what will be his fast wide angle lens with the 1.33 crop. Someone else said there will be a new coming of cropped sensor lenses to take their place.
I think Leica will be wise to bring out a full frame sensor Rangefinder. This might be difficult for them. Perhaps they will not need to and this may be true if the majority of their customers don't have existing lenses. They can just buy the new lenses for the cropped sensor. I think in truth there are a lot of us who have existing glass and we want to use it with the new M8. Many will be fustrated with this approach. If Leica brings out a digital full frame rangefinder then , and please be honest with yourselves, then we will be happy to use our existing lenses with the this full frame digital rangefinder.
I also have an M5 and six film 35mm slr's. So again this is what I am used to - full frame.
Also another poster said somthing important. He has a fast 35mm f/1.4 so even with the 1.33 crop he will have a fast almost normal lens. But he asked what will be his fast wide angle lens with the 1.33 crop. Someone else said there will be a new coming of cropped sensor lenses to take their place.
I think Leica will be wise to bring out a full frame sensor Rangefinder. This might be difficult for them. Perhaps they will not need to and this may be true if the majority of their customers don't have existing lenses. They can just buy the new lenses for the cropped sensor. I think in truth there are a lot of us who have existing glass and we want to use it with the new M8. Many will be fustrated with this approach. If Leica brings out a digital full frame rangefinder then , and please be honest with yourselves, then we will be happy to use our existing lenses with the this full frame digital rangefinder.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
KM-25 said:
I hate to say it, but Kodachrome was probably famous long before David Alan Harvey was born...
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Hi Jaap,
Philipp
Before you doubt the general reliability of his source on grounds of the Kodachrome statement: it looks like Kodak will indeed stop developing Kodachrome in their Lausanne facility, starting September 25. They apparently are still collecting films through their German office, but the film is then sent to the USA for development. This is not official yet, but it's been discussed in the Super-8 community for a while, and various different people apparently seem to have been independently told by Kodak representatives.jaapv said:
Philipp
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
rolo said:
Thank you ... someone finally said it. I've never bought the "Leica isn't targetting/doesn't need the pro market" load of horse-hockey. The very fact that they lost their segment of the pro market is the very reason they have been in financial difficulty.
So even modest growth in pro market share will be quite significant for them. Does anyone believe managers and execs in Solms are say, "Naw, no real need to buy our cameras if you are a pro; we don't really care."?
I'm not a pro, so can't write off an M8. Off to buy lottery tickets, see y'all later.
Edit: This weekend I got my first look (glance, really) at what must have been a "full-frame" Canon digital SLR, with some enormous glass attached. The photographer was a teeny Asian guy, smaller than me; the camera nearly dwarfed him. I was stunned at the size of the rig, and it turned me right off. Hell, my Toyo 4x5 with a 400mm Fujinon-T is more ergonomic; I could handhold it if I had a rangefinder for it. And with the 90mm, it's a very portable wide-angle machine with MEGA-MEGA pixels.
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Trius said:
If they really needed to the solution would be quite simple, like Nikon did in the sixties: just give away 100 camera's to pro's, a number will be seen using it. But the M8 is aimed at a rather specialist market, and though it would be interesting to see it used by some unsung hero documenting the gory bloodshed in the Middle East or some photographic nitwit trying to immortalize Madonna's boobs, it won't make any difference to the decision to buy the thing by the clientele Leica hopes to sell it to.....
rolo
Established
"quite simple, like Nikon did in the sixties: just give away 100 camera's to pro's"
and
Canon is doing big time in 2006 ???
and
Canon is doing big time in 2006 ???
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
jaap: You are trying to "prove" your point by simply stating again that Leica's target market for the M8 is not the pro, whether daily photojournalist, documentarian, or whatever. We shall see, I suppose. And I don't think the only way to do it is to give away a bunch of M8s.
It may be true that Leica isn't really after that market, but just because "everyone" says it, doesn't make it true.
As for me, I think the more people say it, the less I trust what they say.
It may be true that Leica isn't really after that market, but just because "everyone" says it, doesn't make it true.
As for me, I think the more people say it, the less I trust what they say.
saxshooter
Well-known
Leica would never outrightly state that they are not targeting the pro market. But it is simple numbers: there are more non-professional photographers in this world than there are professionals. And I daresay there are probably more non-professional photographers who can afford to buy this camera. I find it hard to believe that any newspaper, wire service, or photo agency is going to buy M8 and lens kits for their photographers, which for the most part are already using Canon or Nikon digital SLR gear, along with major investments in long glass such as 400 2.8 and 600 4's.
Leica would be thrilled if some professionals will buy and use the M8. Some may even be featured in Leica's marketing material for this camera (and in that case, those individuals/agencies could very well have gotten some deal on the equipment from Leica to use).
Twenty years ago up until maybe the end of the 90's the equipment used by photojournalists (to pick one breed of "pro" photographer) was quite varied. Leica M, R, Canon, Nikon, Olympus... medium format, etc.
Today, if the "pro" needs to deliver their images at the end of the day, they are most likely shooting either a digital Canon or Nikon SLR. For freelance photojournalists where work can be feast or famine, in the time that Leica (or anyone else) has not come up with this digital Leica M camera, many have sold off their Leica M kits (if the had them) and bought digital SLR equipment (or an Apple laptop).
Now that the M8 is soon to come out, how many of them can afford to repurchase those Leica lenses that they have sold? Also, many have gotten accustomed to shooting with digital SLR cameras since late 2001, when coverage in Pakistan and Afghanistan post Sept. 11 with digital was crucial in getting those images out to newspapers and magazines on deadline. During that time, I never met a single Leica M using professional photographer when faced with taking a job that entailed digital transmission (which entailed an SLR camera) to turn down that job. They had to adapt.
A photographer from one of the top agencies did a book on the fall of the Taliban and Kabul on a 3 megapixel Canon D30 (Canon's best at the time), and the man regarded as the world's greatest living war photographer was running around Afghanistan with a prototype Canon EOS 1D which was giving him horrible files due to incomplete firmware. But this is where the business was heading, and money was being spent on the two companies producing digital cameras that can be used in the field -- Canon and Nikon digital SLR.
Maybe if this digital Leica camera came out 6 years ago, the playing field would be different. But many rangefinder using pros have moved on to digital SLR cameras. But yes, some will buy the M8 if they can.
So I almost expect to see Leica advertising the M8 with photographers from Magnum. Better yet, find a Magnum photographer who has eschewed digital in favor of his or her Leica M6. Up until now, with the arrival of the M8.
The M8 will not be the bread and butter camera for the majority of professional photographers. Although I'd like to have one in my bag one day -- I was lucky to be able to afford to keep my M lenses.
Leica would be thrilled if some professionals will buy and use the M8. Some may even be featured in Leica's marketing material for this camera (and in that case, those individuals/agencies could very well have gotten some deal on the equipment from Leica to use).
Twenty years ago up until maybe the end of the 90's the equipment used by photojournalists (to pick one breed of "pro" photographer) was quite varied. Leica M, R, Canon, Nikon, Olympus... medium format, etc.
Today, if the "pro" needs to deliver their images at the end of the day, they are most likely shooting either a digital Canon or Nikon SLR. For freelance photojournalists where work can be feast or famine, in the time that Leica (or anyone else) has not come up with this digital Leica M camera, many have sold off their Leica M kits (if the had them) and bought digital SLR equipment (or an Apple laptop).
Now that the M8 is soon to come out, how many of them can afford to repurchase those Leica lenses that they have sold? Also, many have gotten accustomed to shooting with digital SLR cameras since late 2001, when coverage in Pakistan and Afghanistan post Sept. 11 with digital was crucial in getting those images out to newspapers and magazines on deadline. During that time, I never met a single Leica M using professional photographer when faced with taking a job that entailed digital transmission (which entailed an SLR camera) to turn down that job. They had to adapt.
A photographer from one of the top agencies did a book on the fall of the Taliban and Kabul on a 3 megapixel Canon D30 (Canon's best at the time), and the man regarded as the world's greatest living war photographer was running around Afghanistan with a prototype Canon EOS 1D which was giving him horrible files due to incomplete firmware. But this is where the business was heading, and money was being spent on the two companies producing digital cameras that can be used in the field -- Canon and Nikon digital SLR.
Maybe if this digital Leica camera came out 6 years ago, the playing field would be different. But many rangefinder using pros have moved on to digital SLR cameras. But yes, some will buy the M8 if they can.
So I almost expect to see Leica advertising the M8 with photographers from Magnum. Better yet, find a Magnum photographer who has eschewed digital in favor of his or her Leica M6. Up until now, with the arrival of the M8.
The M8 will not be the bread and butter camera for the majority of professional photographers. Although I'd like to have one in my bag one day -- I was lucky to be able to afford to keep my M lenses.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Trius said:
I wish Leica well, but I cannot see them competing against the might of Canon and to a smaller extent Nikon.. Of course there will be a number of pro's shooting and enjoying the M8, depending on the type of work they do. After all there are still a number shooting M camera's and not all of them in Leica's stable and that number should increase. But that cannot be more than a couple of dozens, and even if it were hundreds, I am sure that the bulk of the M8's will be bought by amateurs and that is where the money is.
Anyway, there was an analysis of the digital camera market in a recent Time magazine. The author reconed that there was no place for smaller players than 8% of the market and that DSLR's were not the things that would make the money. Leica was not even mentioned once. They are and will stay a niche manufacturer for the more affluent amateur and die-hard conaisseur market and I believe the M8 is perfectly suited for that.
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jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Peter55 said:
Would you still be so happy if the 24x36mm-frame camera were to cost twice the price of the M8? How about three times as much?
Based on the pricing of Canon (the only current brand that offers both 24x36mm and APS-size sensors) that's a very plausible ratio. In fact, Leica might have to charge more than three times as much for a 24x36-sensor camera, since (unlike Canon) they don't make their own sensors and would have to commission from a vendor a sensor that currently does not exist.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
saxshooter said:
Don't forget that the "professional" market extends far beyond the newspaper, wire service, and photo agency realm.
For example, the wedding industry probably employs more photographers than all the world's wire services combined, and with the rise of "documentary-style" wedding coverage, these photographers might well be attracted to the M8, at least as a supplementary camera.
The same might be said of corporate, institutional, and fine-art photographers. In fact, any segment of the professional photography field in which mobility, responsiveness, and lens quality are important might be a potential market for Leica. Whether they'll be smart enough to capitalize on that remains to be seen.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
That is very true. I know of at least one industrial photographer (see FM forums) who sold, I believe three 1 series Canon DSLR's plus all the Canon glass one could imagine in order to switch to Leica and the DMR, buying two plus two R9's plus a considerable number of lenses, claiming he could recoup the cost in two successful photographs. It seems there are pro's out there that can and will do that. But the number cannot be too large...jlw said:
rolo
Established
"But it is simple numbers: there are more non-professional photographers in this world than there are professionals."
Saxshooter, I've lost track of your point. Nobody was crazy enough to suggest that Leica M8 volumes would be from the professional sector, but a basic understanding of marketing and promotion would lead you to the conclusion that Leica will need celebrities to give the new product the credibility it needs for the mass market. Do you think that David Beckam, the footballer, actually shaves with Gillette blades and coats his hair with Brylcreme every day (actually never) ?
If the celebrity pros announce that the M8 is only a toy for old men to re-live HCB adventures will the volumes even match those of the M7 ?
As for "will a Pro be able to buy an M8" ? The cost of any gear needed is incidental when compared with income generated over the lifetime of the equipment. £25k a year for 10 years is a nice return on a £8k investment.
So there is no mis-understanding, I acknowledge there is a need to have a range of other equipment in the locker including DSLR's, 5x4's, Hasselblads, RB67's ....... I admire anyone who can pay a mortgage with the output from just a 6 mpix DSLR and a kit lens.
Saxshooter, I've lost track of your point. Nobody was crazy enough to suggest that Leica M8 volumes would be from the professional sector, but a basic understanding of marketing and promotion would lead you to the conclusion that Leica will need celebrities to give the new product the credibility it needs for the mass market. Do you think that David Beckam, the footballer, actually shaves with Gillette blades and coats his hair with Brylcreme every day (actually never) ?
If the celebrity pros announce that the M8 is only a toy for old men to re-live HCB adventures will the volumes even match those of the M7 ?
As for "will a Pro be able to buy an M8" ? The cost of any gear needed is incidental when compared with income generated over the lifetime of the equipment. £25k a year for 10 years is a nice return on a £8k investment.
So there is no mis-understanding, I acknowledge there is a need to have a range of other equipment in the locker including DSLR's, 5x4's, Hasselblads, RB67's ....... I admire anyone who can pay a mortgage with the output from just a 6 mpix DSLR and a kit lens.
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rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Leica is partly owned by a company specialising in luxury accessories, I don't think they will have a problem getting celebrities to market the M8 for them. Whether they will get photographer celebrities to do that is another story. I could imagine that Paris Hilton endorsing the M8 ("It's such a sweet camera and I understand all the buttons") would be kind of counterproductive.
Philipp
Philipp
saxshooter
Well-known
rolo said:
You've hit my point right on the head. Leica won't be targeting the pro market for sales, but rather will be using pros to sell this camera to the wider market.
rolo said:
Why would any "celebrity" pro "announce" this? When David Allen Harvey is given Nikon cameras to shoot with for whatever arrangement he has with Nikon, does he use Nikon? Yes. Does he go back to his Leica after the arrangement? Maybe.
rolo said:
I don't know anyone making a living off a digital camera that is more than 4 years old. And I see Leica, in order to survive, will have to continue introducing new products. SO hopes of an upgradeable camera body (beyond minor firmware tweaks) is unlikely, IMO. If that were so, Leica would have just introduced the M3 in 1954 and that would have been it.
So the cost of gear is far from incidental, especially for independent photojournalists and wedding photographers, who for the most part are also independent or working in small collectives (I am speaking in terms of pooling gear).
rolo said:
Thanks. Up until early 2005, many of us were!
saxshooter
Well-known
jlw said:
Yes, I was speaking about only one "breed" of professional photographer.
jlw said:
The wedding industry (which I do not work in) consists mainly of independent operators who are responsible for the purchase and service of their own equipment. Unless they already own Leica M glass, they will think long and hard before getting the M8. Staff photographers at newspapers and wire services are provided the equipment by their employers, so that financial burden is lifted and MAYBE they would want to buy the M8 themselves (I fall into that category). But yes, wedding photographers may be interested in supplementing their kit with the M8. But you can do documentary style photography with a digital SLR too, yes? It's a matter of preference (and funds).
I just wanted to take a step back here and restate my feelings about the upcoming M8 (as working-man digital SLR photographer and weekend Epson RD-1 shooter). I am very excited about it. The 1.3x does not bother me. The fact that it probably won't be upgradable from 10 megapixels doesn't bother me. The only thing that does, and I see as the main bottleneck for Leica in moving this unit in numbers (and hopefully saving the company), is the pricetag.
Even if the camera is $2500 (I'm dreaming) they would still struggle to move the numbers that would bring new users to Leica and their line.
Cheers, Charlie