M8 in 07 $4,750 M9 2010 $7,000. Why?

[jaapv]

I can't speak for things on your side of the Atlantic Roger, as I haven't been there since the end of '07, due in large part to the currency exchange. But here in the US, almost nothing is anywhere near 33% more expensive than it was 3 years ago. Not even as a result of rising gasoline prices. In my profession, fees have not gone up at all, and in fact I know many dental surgeons who place implants who have lowered their fees. Restaurant prices haven't risen, nor have any service-business prices either. Even the prices on German cars like Mercedes and BMW here have not gone up at all. Last fall Porsche dealers were heavily discounting remaining MY09 stock, which was something that nobody remembers when the last time that happened. From my perspective the rise in cost of Leica product (lenses in particular) is way out of whack with either inflation or for that matter currency fluctuation. I don't mean to be argumentative, but "because they can" seems like the only one that's actually a reason vs an excuse.

We were granted an immense 0.1 % price rise for 2010...🙁

 

[Calzone]

The current prices of many retail items are being sold at discount prices due to demand destruction. This is due to the laws of supply and demand as suggested by consumers willing to pay prices, but I would argue that the purchasing power of the U.S. dollar has dropped significantly. This is the reason why Americans can't afford to travel to Europe.

The dollar buys very little in Europe. There is no denighing that the value of the dollar has changed. Again, unfortunately things are not looking good.

Something to think about is the current government policy that "cash is trash." Any anger is misdirected at Leica. You should be mad at our government and the banksters.

Calzone

 

[Roger Hicks]

I can't speak for things on your side of the Atlantic Roger, as I haven't been there since the end of '07, due in large part to the currency exchange. But here in the US, almost nothing is anywhere near 33% more expensive than it was 3 years ago.

Dear Ben,

Hold on! This is 33% more for a significantly different camera! It's not as if the same camera has gone up 33%. Let's say that the same car is available in 100 bhp form and 180 bhp form. Would you expect to pay the same for the 180 bhp version as for the 100 bhp? That's why I gave the example of the Leica II and Leica III in the 1930s: a higher-spec camera costs more.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I think Ben Z is right in his comments about Leica's price increases vs. other companies like Mercedes, etc,,,,

This attitude that if you can afford a Leica you can afford anything is pure bull. I know there are many who wear photo jewelry, but photographers select tools to present their vision in photographs, and most photographers do not shop at Saks 5th Ave or Neiman Marcus. What is the average pay for most photographers? $27,000 and up per year?

Lets face it, artists are always on the lower economic end of things, and their supplies are getting more expensive by the day. The least some companies shoud do is keep things reasonable. A 33% hike in pricing within the time frame discussed, especially in these hard economic times is bad policy!

Art can best be supported if everyone else plays ball more fairly, and here, Leica should at least make sure 33% price increases are not the norm!

First of all, there's the point that the M9 is 33% more expensive than the M8, not that the M8 has gone up 33%, so to borrow your own phrase, referring to a '33% hike' is 'pure bull'. See my earlier post about the 100 bhp and 180 bhp versions of the same car.

Another piece of 'pure bull' is the argument that Leicas should cost less because 'artists are always on the lower economic end of things' and because 'Art can best be supported if everyone else plays ball more fairly, and here, Leica should at least make sure 33% price increases are not the norm'.

Leica's job is not to be a patron of the arts. It is to stay in business, because if you aren't in business, you can't pay salaries or make a profit. If they really were gouging their customers by vastly overpricing their cameras, wouldn't they be have made a profit last year instead of a loss?

Cheers,

R.

 

[Sonnar Brian]

I find the difference in price between the Nikon D3x and Nikon D3 is more difficult to justify than the price difference between the M8 and M9. The Kodak CCD for the m9 required significant new development to get rid of the IR problem. That NRE has to be spread across a relatively limited production camera.

The Nikon D3x uses the same body as the D3, and the same sensor as a much less expensive Sony DSLR camera. The difference in price is almost proportional to the pixel Count.

 

[Ben Z]

Dear Ben,

Hold on! This is 33% more for a significantly different camera! It's not as if the same camera has gone up 33%.

I agree. I don't particularly have a quarrel with Leica over the pricing of the M9 (although I question whether they couldn't have kept the little battery/card-capacity guage on top, added a backlight, and kept the sapphire screen cover for the same price. Seems like some rather petty cost-cutting deletions to me, but that's purely my opinion. Well, not exactly. I've heard/read it from quite a few others).

But if you go back to the part of what I posted that you edited out when you quoted me, which I will re-quote here:

From my perspective the rise in cost of Leica product (lenses in particular) is way out of whack with either inflation or for that matter currency fluctuation.

you will note that where I quarrel is over the rise in prices of lenses which, excepting the latest introductions, are the same specifications they were when they cost 30-50% less. There's where I believe the practice of jacking-up prices stiffly in a period of low-to-nil inflation and generally bad economic times comes under the heading of "because they can".

 

[Calzone]

Dear Ben,

Hold on! This is 33% more for a significantly different camera! It's not as if the same camera has gone up 33%. Let's say that the same car is available in 100 bhp form and 180 bhp form. Would you expect to pay the same for the 180 bhp version as for the 100 bhp? That's why I gave the example of the Leica II and Leica III in the 1930s: a higher-spec camera costs more.

Cheers,

R.

There is this thing called a "Big Mac Index" that posts literally the cost of a Big Mac all over the world using currency exchange rates. The idea is a uniform product where the only differance is the purchasing power of a currency. The surprise is that the price of a Big Mac varies greatly and more than you can imagine. WHY?

When I mentioned the price of a Rolex Submariner (a uniform product like a Big Mac) in an earlier post increasing 66% over a 5 year period of, it was to display the fall of the purchasing power of the U.S. Dollar.

Please excuse me for commodifying a Rolex like a bar of gold, but it is standarized and is a tangable hard asset even as a used object.

Here in Manhattan, every day I see European tourists buying luxury goods in mid-town. If you have been in B&H over the past year, it is easy to take note of all the tourists loading up on gear.

Granted that prices here are discounted at least 19% because there is no Value Added Tax, but on some luxury items the VAT is considerably more.

Roger, what is the price of a Leica M9 in Europe in Euros? I'm pretty confident that with the VAT it is likely higher than in the U.S., but I wonder what is the real number?

Calzone

 

[Roger Hicks]

I agree. I don't particularly have a quarrel with Leica over the pricing of the M9 (although I question whether they couldn't have kept the little battery/card-capacity guage on top, added a backlight, and kept the sapphire screen cover for the same price. Seems like some rather petty cost-cutting deletions to me, but that's purely my opinion. Well, not exactly. I've heard/read it from quite a few others).

But if you go back to the part of what I posted that you edited out when you quoted me, which I will re-quote here:



you will note that where I quarrel is over the rise in prices of lenses which, excepting the latest introductions, are the same specifications they were when they cost 30-50% less. There's where I believe the practice of jacking-up prices stiffly in a period of low-to-nil inflation and generally bad economic times comes under the heading of "because they can".

Dear Ben,

My apologies for missing your point. The edit was simply to highlight the portion I was answering, and as you say, I missed your other point.

Even so, I'd be interested to see how the prices in euros have gone up, and over what period, because ten years ago today 1000€ was $1010 and today it's $1400 -- near enough a 40% price rise without taking any account of inflation or any increase in base price. Nor are those the weakest and strongest euro: from memory, it's been from about $0.89 to about $1.45.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Roger Hicks]

There is this thing called a "Big Mac Index" that posts literally the cost of a Big Mac all over the world using currency exchange rates. The idea is a uniform product where the only differance is the purchasing power of a currency. The surprise is that the price of a Big Mac varies greatly and more than you can imagine. WHY?

When I mentioned the price of a Rolex Submariner (a uniform product like a Big Mac) in an earlier post increasing 66% over a 5 year period of, it was to display the fall of the purchasing power of the U.S. Dollar.

Please excuse me for commodifying a Rolex like a bar of gold, but it is standarized and is a tangable hard asset even as a used object.

Here in Manhattan, every day I see European tourists buying luxury goods in mid-town. If you have been in B&H over the past year, it is easy to take note of all the tourists loading up on gear.

Granted that prices here are discounted at least 19% because there is no Value Added Tax, but on some luxury items the VAT is considerably more.

Roger, what is the price of a Leica M9 in Europe in Euros? I'm pretty confident that with the VAT it is likely higher than in the U.S., but I wonder what is the real number?

Calzone

Highlighted portion: Local wage rates. Local safety standards (meat inspection and health-and-safety cost money). Local taxes (including property taxes). Perceived luxury/cool value (in much of the world, a Big Mac is regarded as barely fit for human consumption; in other places it's a status symbol)...

I believe the M9 was 5500€ in France when it came out (sorry, dunno the current price -- I don't read the French photo press much). The interbank rate on 09/09/09 was $1.44 so the camera was $7920 including TVA. The UK price, I believe, is currently £4850 or (@ today's $1.62) $7857 including 17.5% VAT or $6686 without VAT.

Cheers,

R.

 

[Calzone]

you will note that where I quarrel is over the rise in prices of lenses which, excepting the latest introductions, are the same specifications they were when they cost 30-50% less. There's where I believe the practice of jacking-up prices stiffly in a period of low-to-nil inflation and generally bad economic times comes under the heading of "because they can".

I don't know about you, but even though I have stable employment, a good job, and was lucky to receive a modest raise; overall my standard of living has declined.

If you believe we are experiancing low inflation, I guess you believe the numbers that the government is suppling, but if you go back in time and calculate the CPI using the old method used over thirty years ago, (before Alan Greenspan fudged the numbers) inflation today would be around 10%.

With stagnant wages the American standard of living has declined, and median houshold incomes have declined even using the government's funny numbers. Some people say that "Real Unemployment" is 17.3% in the U.S.

All I have to do is look around me and I see the increase in homelessness. I had no vacation this year. To maintain my health and standard of living I walk four miles round trip with a shopping cart to do my grocery shopping at Costco, otherwise I couldn't afford to eat well to maintain my health.

I'm not complaining, but I have to report what I see. To me inflation is real.

As far as Leica price increases. In a time of demand destruction (please note that I did not use the word deflation) due to oversupply, perhaps Leica has chosen to raise prices to maintain their margins. Like a Rolex, clearly Leica products are luxury items. Rolex BTW raised their prices recently also.

Also I want to mention I remember just a little over a year ago (December 08) Leica offered 30% discounts on select lenses.

Calzone

 

[Calzone]

Thanks Roger.

Calzone

 

[Ben Z]

If you believe we are experiancing low inflation, I guess you believe the numbers that the government is suppling

I'm just taking stock of what various things cost 3-5 years ago vs what they cost now. I shop at Costco too. Some things cost a little more, some a little less, some haven't really changed. By my own cost of living, inflation has been very low. I can't think of a single thing I buy that has gone up as much as Leica lenses (30-50%) but maybe your shopping habits are different from mine.

 

[Calzone]

I'm just taking stock of what various things cost 3-5 years ago vs what they cost now. I shop at Costco too. Some things cost a little more, some a little less, some haven't really changed. By my own cost of living, inflation has been very low. I can't think of a single thing I buy that has gone up as much as Leica lenses (30-50%) but maybe your shopping habits are different from mine.

Ben, I live in New York City and perhaps there are some regional factors. NYC by no means is a good representation of our whole country.

Inflation is hard to measure and guage, and I agree some items are more expensive and others less. One thing I can say for sure is that I am paying more in taxes, and I have less to live on.

While Federal tax cuts reduce one bill, state taxes have increased to make up for the shortfall, and somehow I have less money to spend and I am forced to buy less. I'm calling this inflation because my salary buys less.

With the huge deficiet and trade balances the importation of cheap goods that we see as disinflation masks the decline in real purchasing power. This is not sustainable. In the meantime, the loss of industry, jobs and manufacturing caused by the importation of cheap goods masks real inflation. We will all pay for all these policies later and for a long time.

For every trillion dollars of deficiet every U.S. taxpayer owes $10,00.00. I do not own a home, but this debt is like having a mortgage. Add up the trillions our government owes and you can understand why I have less money to spend and why my standard of living is declining. Somewhere in the future expect even higher taxes to pay down this deficiet. Perhaps because of the higher New York salaries this becomes proportionally amplified.

I appreciate your engagement and respect. It is very hard to contain my anger, and politics seems to be one of those forbidden subjects that are delicate to talk about.

As far as increased costs that have increased a lot; prior to the popping of the real estate bubble, the price of homes in New York increased 40% in four years. Rents made a similar increase over this time. This created less disposible income and lowered my standard of living.

I know there are some areas of the country where housing has been remarkably stable; but they are small and remote. Might you be luckily be in one of those areas?

I will refrain from bashing Wall Street and the banksters at this time.

Calzone

 

[biggambi]

Calzone: I couldn't agree more. The cost of groceries and household goods has certainly gone up in my experience. Gasoline and health care are commanding a larger portion of my earnings, and I have seen a significant decline in work available to my professional field. I also sell prints, (not as a living) in two galleries and these sales have declined. I have two friends that sell prints and books at the international level (as their living) and they too have seen a decline in their income. The economy is not well in the States, and I am really tired of a government and press that continues to try to present a different picture. They seem to believe that if they say it enough times, it will be or at least we will accept the new status quo. If people are not able to recognize the path we are on is one towards the destruction of the middle class. They are not part of the middle class that I am intimately tied to through friends and family.

While Leica cameras may be an item collected among the many other trinkets by the wealthy. I would proclaim that it is a luxurious tool of expression by many who are creating the most memorable images. It is attained by them through true sacrifice, and it would be callus to not acknowledge this fact. I am not saying Leica should be giving the cameras and lenses away, but the price certainly hurts. It's easy to say, buy something else. But, if the range finder system speaks to you, and allows you to express yourself in the best manner. This becomes a serious conundrum, who's answer involves a sacrifice. Either you gain the tool best suited to you or you choose another tool that is less suited to you.

Best Regards,

 

[Calzone]

While Leica cameras may be an item collected among the many other trinkets by the wealthy. I would proclaim that it is a luxurious tool of expression by many who are creating the most memorable images. It is attained by them through true sacrifice, and it would be callus to not acknowledge this fact. I am not saying Leica should be giving the cameras and lenses away, but the price certainly hurts. It's easy to say, buy something else. But, if the range finder system speaks to you, and allows you to express yourself in the best manner. This becomes a serious conundrum, who's answer involves a sacrifice. Either you gain the tool best suited to you or you choose another tool that is less suited to you.

Best Regards,

I feel passionate about what I say, but even though I am becoming poorer due to mounting debt that is beyond my control due to wreckless spending by others, I have chosen to have a few nice things to remind me that I have worked hard and deserve some dignity.

Yes I own a Rolex, yes I have two Masters degrees, and I have accumulated some nice things that define the comfort of the middle-class, yet I am being reminded of my harsh hard beginnings, and I balance this against what this country once allow me to have. My father was an illegal immigrant and we were poor BTW. It seems the America I use to know and love is being eroded. I am pissed!!!

I guess I need these few trickets to remind me, because I need reassurance. I am currently downsizing and getting ready for more punishment that I do not deserve because I did nothing wrong.

Thanks for reading my rant.

Calzone

 

[biggambi]

I feel passionate about what I say, but even though I am becoming poorer due to mounting debt that is beyond my control due to wreckless spending by others, I have chosen to have a few nice things to remind me that I have worked hard and deserve some dignity.

Yes I own a Rolex, yes I have two Masters degrees, and I have accumulated some nice things that define the comfort of the middle-class, yet I am being reminded of my harsh hard beginnings, and I balance this against what this country once allow me to have. My father was an illegal immigrant and we were poor BTW. It seems the America I use to know and love is being eroded. I am pissed!!!

I guess I need these few trickets to remind me, because I need reassurance. I am currently downsizing and getting ready for more punishment that I do not deserve because I did nothing wrong.

Thanks for reading my rant.

Calzone

Spoken with the true pain that many of us are feeling, especially those who have overcome more meager beginnings. And, I would certainly not apply the word "trinkets" to the few cherished attainments by the middle class.

 

[Calzone]

Spoken with the true pain that many of us are feeling, especially those who have overcome more meager beginnings. And, I would certainly not apply the word "trinkets" to the few cherished attainments by the middle class.

You are right. I am/we are still very lucky.

Calzone

 

[Ben Z]

As far as increased costs that have increased a lot; prior to the popping of the real estate bubble, the price of homes in New York increased 40% in four years. Rents made a similar increase over this time. This created less disposible income and lowered my standard of living.

I know there are some areas of the country where housing has been remarkably stable; but they are small and remote. Might you be luckily be in one of those areas?

Actually, no. Real estate prices have dropped like the proverbial lead balloon here in Florida since the "bubble" burst. My home is worth about 60% of what I could've sold it for 3 years ago. But it's still worth twice what I paid for it, although my property tax remains the same, being based on the assessment at the time of purchase. As for rent, my office lease had a 5%/yr increase built in, but I just renewed it for another 3 years only because the landlord agreed to delete that clause and freeze things as they are now. Due to the economic downturn, there's a ton of commercial rentals out there now, so renters pretty much can write their own tickets. So as I said, I'm not seeing inflation, (to bring this back on topic) at least not anywhere in the realm of how much a 35 Summilux-ASPH for example has gone up in recent times.

 

[Calzone]

Actually, no. Real estate prices have dropped like the proverbial lead balloon here in Florida since the "bubble" burst. My home is worth about 60% of what I could've sold it for 3 years ago. But it's still worth twice what I paid for it, although my property tax remains the same, being based on the assessment at the time of purchase. As for rent, my office lease had a 5%/yr increase built in, but I just renewed it for another 3 years only because the landlord agreed to delete that clause and freeze things as they are now. Due to the economic downturn, there's a ton of commercial rentals out there now, so renters pretty much can write their own tickets. So as I said, I'm not seeing inflation, (to bring this back on topic) at least not anywhere in the realm of how much a 35 Summilux-ASPH for example has gone up in recent times.

Ben, thanks for your response. Its interesting the contrast. My lease ran out last Thanksgiving. I'm without a lease, but my landlord didn't give me a rent reduction. Overall New York rents have dropped 8%, and there currently are plenty of opportunities to get two months free rent on luxury two bedroom apartments and one free month on one bedrooms, both with no fee.

Even so, locally, this does not make up for the gouging that has occured over the past five years here.

Back on topic: I still have the price list from B&H for a 50/1.4 Lux ASPH at $2.4K. As we know that was a great price. I'm pretty sure it was some sort of promotional price because used 50 ASPH Luxes were selling used at Adorama during that time.

Calzone