hansformat
Member
All
I am a Leica film user (M6 ttl) and have been watching the M8 since it came out. I'm not quite rich enough to pull the trigger, but at some point who knows. The camera is beautiful and would appear to give terrific results...but there are problems. So I want to see if there is reasonable agreement on where this product is and what progress there has been made on the issues.
From what I can tell, the situation and status is:
1. UV issue - solved with filters.
2. White balance issue - solved in latest firmware.
3. Not terribly reliable (unlike film M's) - No improvement.
4. Weak customer service - No improvement.
5. Shutter is too loud - Announce upgrade appears to address this. However, it sounds like it won't become part of the standard camera. For a small company like Leica this seems particularly crazy - they now have to support two different shutter mechanisms and if you want a quiet shutter you need to buy the camera and then send it away for weeks/months. Seems poorly thought through.
6. 8/16 bit issue - No announced change, but then again I'm not sure this is important. I use Photoshop Elements and have to turn my 16 bit scans into 8 bit for a lot of the operations, and I still get fabulous results. If the results of the M8 are fabulous then this is more or less irrelevant.
7. Shutter delay - No announced change, but maybe the upgraded shutter will have less delay.
8. Cheap feel (vs. film M's) - Saphire glass and vulcanite covering in the upgrade would appear to partially address this.
9. Full frame sensor - No announced change. However, I don't see this as a real issue either. If the camera gives fabulous results why should the slightly smaller sensor matter. The camera has a 1.25x sensor, which is better than the new Nikon at 1.5x. The 1.0x Nikon has only 12MP...so are images going to be better than the Leica? I doubt it...the rangefinder lenses are great. Also, this conversion factor is so small that all it means is your 28 becomes 35, your 35 becomes 50, and your 50 becomes a short tele. What's the problem with that?
Is this the entire list and current status?
Thanks.
I am a Leica film user (M6 ttl) and have been watching the M8 since it came out. I'm not quite rich enough to pull the trigger, but at some point who knows. The camera is beautiful and would appear to give terrific results...but there are problems. So I want to see if there is reasonable agreement on where this product is and what progress there has been made on the issues.
From what I can tell, the situation and status is:
1. UV issue - solved with filters.
2. White balance issue - solved in latest firmware.
3. Not terribly reliable (unlike film M's) - No improvement.
4. Weak customer service - No improvement.
5. Shutter is too loud - Announce upgrade appears to address this. However, it sounds like it won't become part of the standard camera. For a small company like Leica this seems particularly crazy - they now have to support two different shutter mechanisms and if you want a quiet shutter you need to buy the camera and then send it away for weeks/months. Seems poorly thought through.
6. 8/16 bit issue - No announced change, but then again I'm not sure this is important. I use Photoshop Elements and have to turn my 16 bit scans into 8 bit for a lot of the operations, and I still get fabulous results. If the results of the M8 are fabulous then this is more or less irrelevant.
7. Shutter delay - No announced change, but maybe the upgraded shutter will have less delay.
8. Cheap feel (vs. film M's) - Saphire glass and vulcanite covering in the upgrade would appear to partially address this.
9. Full frame sensor - No announced change. However, I don't see this as a real issue either. If the camera gives fabulous results why should the slightly smaller sensor matter. The camera has a 1.25x sensor, which is better than the new Nikon at 1.5x. The 1.0x Nikon has only 12MP...so are images going to be better than the Leica? I doubt it...the rangefinder lenses are great. Also, this conversion factor is so small that all it means is your 28 becomes 35, your 35 becomes 50, and your 50 becomes a short tele. What's the problem with that?
Is this the entire list and current status?
Thanks.
Eric T
Well-known
Hansformat,
I agree with your list. The serious issues have been fixed. Most of the other issues are not terribly important. The only issue I would add to your list is the noise at ISO 640 and above. In my hands and for my purposes, noise above 320 is unacceptable. But I can work around this issue by setting the ev to -1 or lower and by using fast lenses.
In summary, the M8 gives great images. I am not disappointed.
Eric
I agree with your list. The serious issues have been fixed. Most of the other issues are not terribly important. The only issue I would add to your list is the noise at ISO 640 and above. In my hands and for my purposes, noise above 320 is unacceptable. But I can work around this issue by setting the ev to -1 or lower and by using fast lenses.
In summary, the M8 gives great images. I am not disappointed.
Eric
TJV
Well-known
Perhaps the shutter delay is something people are experiencing in their head due to some of the early M8's shutter release buttons being a bit sticky? Didn't have a problem with mine except in the first 1000 exposures until the button was run in. I agree that the M8 feels cheaper compared to say an M3 but wouldn't say it feels cheep, just not quite as solid. Noise issue is also debatable but my experience suggests 640iso and below is great, 1250 is useable and 2500 is not for me. It's a great camera but alas, I no longer have one. That will change though!
Laowai
Newbie
Last weekend I was in Singapore, looking for an M8 bargain. Two reason why I didn't empty my wallet:
1. I couldn't find a bargain price
2. The M8 really feels surprisingly cheap as compared to the M-series or my Nikon F5.
1. I couldn't find a bargain price
2. The M8 really feels surprisingly cheap as compared to the M-series or my Nikon F5.
JWW
Established
The M8 does not have a shutter delay. I have a M8, a MP, and a M3. The M8 gets used the most. To me the M8 feels like a tool but certainly doesn't feel cheap and I don't baby it as much as my MP or M3. The key things I like are that it's sure nice to take thousands of pictures without processing costs and use my fast lenses wide open in daylight with the fast shutter speed.
Jan
Jan
The list may be overstated due to the nature of internet discussion, where complaints arise freely and praise is harder to come by.
Avotius
Some guy
To comment on a few of your issues.
- The 8/16 bit issue is blown out of per portion. If someone print photos, and really understands printing photos, 8 and 16 bit really dont make a difference in the grand scale of printing as most of us do it. In different pro environments where all those things mater then yes, it does make a difference, but how many of us are in the habit of actually printing the photos we take, let alone in a truly professional printing studio. You can easily print 8 bit images. As for working with the files in photoshop, yes, more bits is better, but there is no camera out there in our grasp that shoots 16 bit. Not even a phase one P45 back shoots 16 bit, it shoots 14 bit. Oh and to add insult to injury pro level printers cant print nearly anything close to 8 bit.
(by the way I know im going to get it for what I just said up there, but my information comes from personal experience and my teacher who was the National Geographic photo editor here in China)
- Shutter too loud. Depends. For those circumstances needing it a M Leica's shutter is too loud too. I highly suggest the Canon Ixus 75. Dead quite shutter.
- Not reliable. Rubbish, total utter rubbish. Go use one. Plenty of people do.
- Shutter delay. Again, go use one. Not a problem. Try any DSLR and compare.
- Less then full frame. With the current technology, you dont want a full frame sensor.
- Upgrades. Was there a vulkinit covering announced? I must have missed that one.
Anyway, go use a M8 practically and you will either find it a nice tool or not your style. Its a mater of taste. I have used them on many occasions, I find them to be more then competent, as do many others.
- The 8/16 bit issue is blown out of per portion. If someone print photos, and really understands printing photos, 8 and 16 bit really dont make a difference in the grand scale of printing as most of us do it. In different pro environments where all those things mater then yes, it does make a difference, but how many of us are in the habit of actually printing the photos we take, let alone in a truly professional printing studio. You can easily print 8 bit images. As for working with the files in photoshop, yes, more bits is better, but there is no camera out there in our grasp that shoots 16 bit. Not even a phase one P45 back shoots 16 bit, it shoots 14 bit. Oh and to add insult to injury pro level printers cant print nearly anything close to 8 bit.
(by the way I know im going to get it for what I just said up there, but my information comes from personal experience and my teacher who was the National Geographic photo editor here in China)
- Shutter too loud. Depends. For those circumstances needing it a M Leica's shutter is too loud too. I highly suggest the Canon Ixus 75. Dead quite shutter.
- Not reliable. Rubbish, total utter rubbish. Go use one. Plenty of people do.
- Shutter delay. Again, go use one. Not a problem. Try any DSLR and compare.
- Less then full frame. With the current technology, you dont want a full frame sensor.
- Upgrades. Was there a vulkinit covering announced? I must have missed that one.
Anyway, go use a M8 practically and you will either find it a nice tool or not your style. Its a mater of taste. I have used them on many occasions, I find them to be more then competent, as do many others.
Last edited:
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Internet forums are microscopes. Read a Canon forum and you'll never buy one, the same for Nikon, the same for Leica.
In this case: The M8 is a d**n fine camera, nearly all owners are happy to estatic. Is it perfect? No. Is any camera perfect? Equally no. Does it fit your wishes and expectations? Only you can tell.
In my judgement youl will have more difficulties and teething troubles with your switch to digital than you'll ever have with the M8....
And btw, if you want to have 16-bit output you'll have to consider a Leica R9/DMR. Shooting the M8 and the DMR side by side myself, there is very litlle difference in quality between the files in real life. Forget about bits, look at prints.....
In this case: The M8 is a d**n fine camera, nearly all owners are happy to estatic. Is it perfect? No. Is any camera perfect? Equally no. Does it fit your wishes and expectations? Only you can tell.
In my judgement youl will have more difficulties and teething troubles with your switch to digital than you'll ever have with the M8....
And btw, if you want to have 16-bit output you'll have to consider a Leica R9/DMR. Shooting the M8 and the DMR side by side myself, there is very litlle difference in quality between the files in real life. Forget about bits, look at prints.....
Last edited:
yclinn
Member
I just bouth my M8 for one week,
I like shooting with it most of the time,
For me to take kid's motion in available light,
ISO 640-1250 won't ruin the atmosphere and the quality is good in my opinion.
it's really convenient using an M8 and to shoot whenever you want.
I like shooting with it most of the time,
For me to take kid's motion in available light,
ISO 640-1250 won't ruin the atmosphere and the quality is good in my opinion.
it's really convenient using an M8 and to shoot whenever you want.
hansformat
Member
Just to continue my list:
10. ISO noise - No improvement. However, there is reasonable discussion about just how important this is. It seems that up to 640 it is fine, and up to 1200 or so it is usable. Given that you are ratcheting down lenses (e.g. 28 is the new 35) it makes sense that you would want to use faster ISO to compensate for what might be slower lenses...this is a medium issue. The posted photos I have seen at 800 to 1200 look pretty good...film has lots of noise at those speeds too!
11. Lens coding - Some people have complained about this, but I actually think Leica's solution is brilliant and fits in very well with the purpose of this camera. Code the lenses (either with Leica's permanent service or with the various cheaper "pen" approaches) and the problem is solved without making a very simple elegant camera more complex.
All in all I think Leica did an absolutely fantastic job with this camera. It looks amazing...and it is clearly differentiated in the market (rangefinder, uses old lenses very well, simple unlike most digital cameras, fabulous image quality, etc) and it is definitely something I would be interesting buying.
The 2 real problems from my perspective are: pricing (i really feel for Leica here...the dollar and US economic problems have really hurt them in a key market for them) and the customer support issues (waiting months is not acceptible at these price points). The pricing issue in the long run will kill the company...if people like me have difficulty at this price point there is a real problem - I have spent money on a new Leica before and think the camera is great but I will have a lot of trouble at this price. The price rise from an already too high 4.8 to 5.5 way way over the top.
And I still think Leica supporting two shutter mechanisms is a mistake.
Thanks everyone who responded. I am really rooting for Leica on this...great camera, great company, and I hope a great future.
10. ISO noise - No improvement. However, there is reasonable discussion about just how important this is. It seems that up to 640 it is fine, and up to 1200 or so it is usable. Given that you are ratcheting down lenses (e.g. 28 is the new 35) it makes sense that you would want to use faster ISO to compensate for what might be slower lenses...this is a medium issue. The posted photos I have seen at 800 to 1200 look pretty good...film has lots of noise at those speeds too!
11. Lens coding - Some people have complained about this, but I actually think Leica's solution is brilliant and fits in very well with the purpose of this camera. Code the lenses (either with Leica's permanent service or with the various cheaper "pen" approaches) and the problem is solved without making a very simple elegant camera more complex.
All in all I think Leica did an absolutely fantastic job with this camera. It looks amazing...and it is clearly differentiated in the market (rangefinder, uses old lenses very well, simple unlike most digital cameras, fabulous image quality, etc) and it is definitely something I would be interesting buying.
The 2 real problems from my perspective are: pricing (i really feel for Leica here...the dollar and US economic problems have really hurt them in a key market for them) and the customer support issues (waiting months is not acceptible at these price points). The pricing issue in the long run will kill the company...if people like me have difficulty at this price point there is a real problem - I have spent money on a new Leica before and think the camera is great but I will have a lot of trouble at this price. The price rise from an already too high 4.8 to 5.5 way way over the top.
And I still think Leica supporting two shutter mechanisms is a mistake.
Thanks everyone who responded. I am really rooting for Leica on this...great camera, great company, and I hope a great future.
Ben Z
Veteran
hansformat said:
Not an elegant solution, a kludge to be totally frank, but it does work.
True, the outrageous color balance skewing is fixed. Now the auto white balance is no worse than major DSLR's. But not better either. At least I find I can now leave it in auto and only occasionally need a slight correction in ACR. Before I had to use my color meter and set Kelvin temp, or choose one of the presets and remember to change them when the light changed.
I haven't had any problems with mine yet but I admit I have less confidence in the M8 than in my 20D. I've always been one to carry a backup, so that's not a problem. The problem is there is no inexpensive digital M-mount backup for an M8, so I have to choose between my M6+film or the D-Lux-3, both have their advantages and disadvantages.
The couple experiences I had with Leica in Northvale, NJ was some time ago and they were very quick and very accomodating, but I know other people who have had the opposite experience. And they have almost always had to send the M8 to Germany rather than fix it in-house. Hopefully that will change soon.
Mine sounds just like an M6+motorwinder. The shutter isn't loud, it's the motorwind. To me an upgrade would have been a manual winding lever like the Epson R-D1. A slightly quieter shutter with the motorwind is of no interest to me, especially since it means giving up 1/8000 (which I go above 1/4000 frequently shooting wide-open in daylight even at ISO 160) and getting a slower flash synch (I love the M8 for daylight fill flash). In fact if they just let us seperate the shutter release from the motorwind I would consider it a better option than replacing the shutter with a slower one.
No comment other than the image quality I get from my M8 is just fine for my needs and wants.
I have my M8 next to my M6 and I can't detect any increased shutter lag on the M8.
Again, M6 next to M8 and I'm scratching my head. I don't see where the M8 feels or looks "cheap" by comparison. I have a Best Screens Ever (aka Invisible Shield) protector on my screen, it has no scratches and has not begun to peel (unlike the PDA skin I had before). The body covering is the same smooth, hard texture as my (long-sold) MP, which IMO is definitely a step down from the M6, but it's a personal thing. I also must say that I only use my LCD for changing settings (and I almost never do, in fact I set ISO 160 permanently and "push process" in ACR, gives much less need for Noise Ninja). My review is always "off" and I almost never remove the rear flap of my Luigi case. The case also has a better grip (although it isn't the one with the molded grip) and deadens sound, so it basically solves the LCD and shutter issues too.
I never saw the reason to go from a 20D to a 5D, and I don't see a reason I'd spend $$$$ to go to a FF M9, unless there are other major improvements as well. I've shot the same focal length wide-angles on a 5D and a film EOS and the 5D suffers in the corners. I take it the problem would be increased with the short rear distance inside the M body, and I have to wonder what can of worms Leica will have to open to solve those issues. Look at what they had to do just to have a weak IR filter on the sensor
Last edited:
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Service is not always as bad as it is made out - I have had excellent customer support. Some have different experiences. But the setting up of M8 service centres in the USA and far East as planned is hopeful.
rsl
Russell
jaapv said:
Jaap, before you become too committed to this point of view, better check the D1, D2, D3 forum on nikonions.org.
Avotius
Some guy
I agree with jaapv though, I bought a 20D where there was a hellstorm of bad talk going on about it. It has worked great though a lot of stuff. I would buy an M8 if I had a lot of disposable income, and although I can afford one, I cant in the logical side of my brain afford one. But here is to Leica soldiering on in a very tiny market with the worst group of trolls biting away at them.
Tuolumne
Veteran
Avotius said:
Amen! Amen!
/T
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
rsl said:
Thankfully there are some exceptions:angel: : Nikonions is not too bad, GetDPI.com is another example...
RFF and LUF are medium, and then there is pNet, DPreview and other places I only visit when I want to marvel....
Richard Marks
Rexel
Why on earth do you not go and try an M8 for your self? Most of these questions could be answered in the first 10 minutes. Take some pictures onto ans SD card, shoot some film with your M6 and see for yourself.hansformat said:
Then come back to this forum with some informed questions.
Regards
Richard
hansformat
Member
Richard
I will probably do that but I would hope that doesn't preclude me gathering information from the forum either. Presumably that's its purpose.
I will probably do that but I would hope that doesn't preclude me gathering information from the forum either. Presumably that's its purpose.
Richard Marks
Rexel
hansformat said:
Yes of course this forum is an excellent source of information. Its just that a lot of the points you raise such as "build quality" and "shutter sound" are very subjective. It is a lot of money by any one's standards and you really do have to spend some time using an M8 in order to decide. Incidentally there really is no appreciable shutter lag in normal use. That much I can say with confidence. Shutter lag can occur if using pre flash with an SF24 flash gun. TTL flash is not great, but using auto mode works a treat.
I would be delighted (as would others here) to send you some sample images if that helps.
Best wishes
Richard
hansformat
Member
Richard
Yes I agree. I think the camera looks very impressive and Leica hasn't gotten enough credit...from what I can see they did a great job as I said above. People want perfection...in the film world with the M cameras they came damn close...in the digital world it is virtually impossible. As an example, I am now dealing with my 3rd computer meltdown (Windows XP operating system severely damaged) in 5 years. Microsoft is a company of virtually unlimited means and yet there are a nearly unbelievable number of issues and problems with their product. This is also true with other digital cameras...but generally speaking their user bases are not quite as demanding as Leica's is!
Leica on the other hand has succeeded very well...a wonderfully simple camera that works great with the same lenses and that is very nicely differentiated in the market. The camera is very attractive...most of the "issues" are not really issues...people seem to be more and more in agreement on that. The sensor size in particular seems blown completely way out of proportion to its "importance".
Not perfect (support, pricing are more serious problems for the company)...but as I said above the thing is darn impressive and should not be receiving all this negative press. In the digital world there are more tradeoffs...people need to understand that.
From what I can tell you are a fan as well. There are more fans coming forward and telling their part of the story as well...which I think is great.
Jason.
Yes I agree. I think the camera looks very impressive and Leica hasn't gotten enough credit...from what I can see they did a great job as I said above. People want perfection...in the film world with the M cameras they came damn close...in the digital world it is virtually impossible. As an example, I am now dealing with my 3rd computer meltdown (Windows XP operating system severely damaged) in 5 years. Microsoft is a company of virtually unlimited means and yet there are a nearly unbelievable number of issues and problems with their product. This is also true with other digital cameras...but generally speaking their user bases are not quite as demanding as Leica's is!
Leica on the other hand has succeeded very well...a wonderfully simple camera that works great with the same lenses and that is very nicely differentiated in the market. The camera is very attractive...most of the "issues" are not really issues...people seem to be more and more in agreement on that. The sensor size in particular seems blown completely way out of proportion to its "importance".
Not perfect (support, pricing are more serious problems for the company)...but as I said above the thing is darn impressive and should not be receiving all this negative press. In the digital world there are more tradeoffs...people need to understand that.
From what I can tell you are a fan as well. There are more fans coming forward and telling their part of the story as well...which I think is great.
Jason.