M8 or M7

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intinsifi

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Hey, I am looking to buy a Leica. Currently, I have a Nikon D200. I don't know whether to buy a M8 or M7. I've never really shot film before because I am young. I already have a digital camera, and it would be nice to have a film camera. I am worried that if I get the M7, it will be a hassle to get negatives developed. I am also worried that it will be hard to find good film in the coming years. I don't know much about the different types of film. I've only shot one roll of film, and it was with a Minox GL. I liked the look of film a lot so I am sorta leaning towards the M7. I like the M8 because it would be convient to get the images onto a computer, and I am also used to shooting digital. I am used to being able to see my pictures right away and being able to delete. I feel that getting a film camera would make me a better photographer because I would have to be more careful about what I choose to shoot. My other worry about the M8 is its value. Digital devices get outdated quickly, and I feel that I would be somewhat upset when Leica relased an M9. I don't know what to do, and I would really appreciate some advice.
 
This is tricky, I would say go with the M8 now, then get a used M6 in the future, you'll have the best of both worlds. In my opnion, nothing compares with shooting a film M, but the M8 just made life so much easier for me.
 
The choice has to be: the Nikon D200 camera and a Leica M 6.

For shooting digital you have already the Nikon.
As you said: digital devices get outdated quickly. Also the M8 centainly!

The M6 Leica (the famous Leica M 4 with meter) is the standard film camera for negatives and slides!
I advice you to buy this camera. A pleasure to photograph with it. It is one of the best cameras ever made!
I still work with this camera since 1984!

You can get plenty enough films as long as people want to make photos with film!
 
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I thought about getting a used M6, but I am going to buy new so that means M7 for me. I like the M8, but I think the images would be too similar to my D200's images. Is it going to be hard to find film or will it be around for a while? Is it hard to setup your own darkroom? I know my school has one, but I don't know if I can access it or not. I don't shoot a lot. I mostly shoot on weekends, so the cost of film doesn't seem to be too much of an issue.
 
i think i can help here.

I started with film but after I got my first job, I got a digital camera ( a crappy point and shoot ). Liked it so much then I bought one of the best digital cameras available ( and still of the best I've ever shoot with ) : Fuji S2 PRO.

I then changed frequently. Fuji S2 PRO, Nikon D100, Nikon D1X, Canon 1Ds, Nikon D2x.

Then I changed to a Leica M7 which was stolen. Now I bought a Leica MP to replace it.

I loved my M7 and I recommend it over a MP, for someone who never shoot film, its easier to get good results with it. MP is rather different, I got used to it quickly, and now Im completely in love with it but I wouldn't recommend it for someone who never shoot film.

I love film, I dont love its processing time and hassle. Why its better ? Better quality ? Better this and that ? No.

For me its just because its more disciplined. You dont have 239084230984 memory cards. You just have half of rolls of film. And you have to make them count. Forces you not to shoot more carefully and think. Thats for me a big plus.

With digital its easy, you just shoot away and then delete. This is bad. Very bad.

You loose focus, you dont compose carefully , you dont look OUTSIDE the picture to see if there is anything interesting. You just shoot.

Film vs Digital is kinda like Sniper vs Machine gun.

You, in theory could do the same if you limit yourself to 2 or 3 memory cards, but its not the same. You still have a good FPS and chimping.

With a MP you have the felling that the thing will last forever and that everything its manual : you selected the focus, the exposure, you pushed the button. The photo is all yours, you made it from top to bottom, its your magic, not some fancy CCD or CMOS with an elaborate CPU. Takes time to master though, im still in the very learning phase but my processing lab appreciates that very much.

Plus correcting silly color shifts from velvia scans in Photoshop means that you still have some use for your digital software :)

I have to disagree : D200 and the M6 doesn't seem a good idea. You will quickly hate the M6 : you will not chimp, you wont learn the beast. I traded my Nikon D2x for a M7. Its the only way. You can later one come back to digital, but you have to force yourself to use the leica, you have digital habits. Bad ones I have to say .)

Use it, force yourself and you will reap the rewards : the first rolls will be frustrating, you will try to cope with the meter, the adjustments, the fact you dont have a LCD to check , should you or shouldn't bracket that shot and just get familiar with the camera and films. Its a bit of a pain but once you find a film that give you the colors you like ( try slide film ) or even just plain black & white and once you are familiar with the camera you will enjoy it immensely.

Leica M6 or M7 ? well one problem that M6's suffered was the viewfinder was prone to flare.. a good M6 with a M7 upgraded viewfinder will be close a M7, so shop around and see.

If you sell your D200 and lens you can get a M6 and 35 ASPH f2 for example. Fantastic lens but if you love bokeh ( i do ) , go for a 50mm 1.4 summilux ( pre asph ) , just have bokeh that makes you scream. And trust me, I had nikon and canon finest : L, AFS, etc .

One thing : Leica is a big world and it will take a while to get into. Leica items are VERY costly. Lens, cameras.

My final advice is : take a step back. Dont rush to buy. Read. Get all the info you can about the cameras. I advise you a M6/7 or even a MP, all depends on what you want. Lens ? Too many to list. Lurk and read forums, buy a couple of books. Then buy. Just rest assured that leica items are so costly in second hand because they hold they value extremely well. I started with the 35 ASPH F2 but this lens wasnt really for me, I wanted something much more creamy and with a smoother bokeh. Leica stuff depreciate much slower but still they cost humongus amount of money. So again, take that step back and see what you want. If you go to a shop, they might even let you play with the cameras / lens. For example, I wanted a 75 1.4 badly and after playing with one, isnt the lens for me. Too big and heavy ( in leica standards, lens are much smaller than "normal" 35mm ) . Although its a gem in picture department.

Good luck
 
Here's what you do:

Get rid of the D200.
Purchase a M8 w./ Lens
When you have enough funds, look for a decent M6. If you have some serious cash, look into gettting a MP. You can share the lens between the M8/MP/M6. Now you have the best of both worlds!

It's true that technology and always improving and getting cheaper, but I find the M8 is more then enough for my simple style of photography.

Don't worry about film going obsolete. It will be around for a long time to come with the more 'artistic' or 'traditional' crowd.
 
Basically, you don't set up a darkroom. You can develop B&W film to a level of exquisite goodness with about $100 worth of gear and chemicals, and you can do it in your bathroom at night, and do it better than it'll get done at most pro labs. Color film you drop in the mail and get done professionally (Look up Dwayne's). Then, you scan the negs and do the rest of the work digitally.

If I were just starting out, I sure as hell wouldn't spend as much money as you'd have to spend on an M8 outfit. I've got an M8 and it's a great camera, but it's a camera for people who have developed a certain style of shooting and want to push that to the extreme. Right now, getting new equipment, a decent M8 outfit starting from scratch could cost you $20,000, and you wouldn't have either macro or tele capability. I would say if you're just starting, stick with a DSLR until you completely understand what kind of shooting you're committed to; and that's a lot easier to do when you can work and understand a whole range of lenses.

JC
 
I think M7 is a better fit for you.

MP is great but I am afraid you will be impatient about manual dial control, speed->aperture->composition 3 workflows have to be performed. M7 at least save you the trouble of speed dial change and much faster.
 
intinsifi said:
I thought about getting a used M6, but I am going to buy new so that means M7 for me. I like the M8, but I think the images would be too similar to my D200's images. Is it going to be hard to find film or will it be around for a while? Is it hard to setup your own darkroom? I know my school has one, but I don't know if I can access it or not. I don't shoot a lot. I mostly shoot on weekends, so the cost of film doesn't seem to be too much of an issue.
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The M7 is an automatic camera. The working depends on batteries!

The M 6 is completely mechanical and need in fact no battery, except for the meter!

To find film is no problem! In the USA and in Europe you can find enough film of every kind!

To find and to make your own darkroom is at the moment cheaper than ever!

When you don't shoot to much, than is it an option to bring your negatives to a 'prof. lab'.
Your slides have you always to develop with a lab.

You can also scan your slides and negatives!


With a digital and 'analog' camera you have in fact many opportunities!
 
I say go for film, although it seems a little hipocritical as I am buying a dslr soon.

Film makes you take your time, and it will help you learn. Your digital shots will also improve as well. I don't have a Leica, nor tried any of them, but I think that you would really benefit from shooting film.

Film isn't dead yet, and it isn't going anywhere for a while. As for using the school's darkroom, I did it this year at my school. I wasn't taking a photo class, but I was freindly and asked the photo teacher nicely, and she was happy to let me use it. I had to pay for paper, but that isn't unreasonable at all.
 
I will probably get an M7. I don't know what an MP is so I will have to look into it. I am not selling my D200 though. I have a 17-55 and 70-200 for my Nikon. I am only looking to get a 50mm Summilux for my Leica. I mostly do street shooting, and I find that my Nikon is too big for it. I can't decide whether to get a 50mm or 35mm for the Leica. Any advice on that?
 
Great post proenca! :) intinsifi I use M7s and I think it would be a very suitable cam for you. You've got aperture priority automatic exposure so you don't have to worry about the shutter speed for a bit, then you can also go fully manual when the fancy strikes you. It's a great camera I use two of them 0.72 mag & 0.85 mag and I started off with an M6TTL but much prefer the M7. Give it serious consideration. You live in Boston go to EP Levine's in the dock area and talk to Mike Bard and try out an M7. He will cut you a deal.
 
Oh I see you already decided. Too much going on here... I would say start with a 50 and use it for a while. Maybe a better transition focal length from a digi rig.
 
I just read about the MP, and I have changed my mind now. I'd rather get the MP over the M7. I like both cameras, but I dont need aperture priority. I use aperture priority way too much on my D200, and I feel disconnected form my pictures. There aren't that many shutter speed settings on the camera; therefore, it can't be that hard to manually select them. I also like the look of the MP better. It is more discrete. Does anyone have any advice about the MP?
 
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I've used both AP and fully manual cameas and in the heat of the moment or very variable lighting conditions it can be great to have AE. Allows you to focus on the important things; light source and your position relative to it, composition, and DOF. At other times fully manual is perfect. The M7 gives you both.
 
Coming form digital (D1x, 17-55, 70-200 VR) but having shot film for almost 20 years with Nikon MF lenses and F3HP / FM, I would suggest "the tough way" ... Get yourself a meterless (!!) M4-P and two lenses like 2.8 28mm Elmarit and 50 mm Summilux pre-asph. Together with a small hand-held meter you can learn shooting film from the scratch and don't have to spent that much money on the M body. After some time - and if you really think that a M rangefinder is the way to go for you - sell the D200 with the Nikon lenses and then decide which second M body to buy, either a film MP, M7 or a digital M8 (if you don't like the idea of film).

I sold my D1x together with the zoom lenses because the 70-200 VR did never make it for me and with the Leicas and Leica glass I get better results compared to the D1x / 17-55 combination.

- Gabor
 
I wouldn't sell the D200. That camera is just way too good to let go. Of course, over here on RFF we're all RF biased, but in reality selling it is not really sensible. It's not sensible photography wise (macro? zoom? tele?).. and it's not sensible as the money it raises will be not near what you paid for it..

Getting used to manual exposure setting isn't a problem IMO, an M6 is so different from a D200 that you'll have to adjust to another way of working altogether. The exposure thing is just one of them.
 
thank you for all the kudos on my post :)

but I again emphasize two things : selling the D200 and get a Leica, but most important, take a step back and read.

For example, you did not know what a MP was. If you rushed to buy the M7, you will be lusting for a MP. You could change , but it would take you a few hundreds ( dollars, euros,pounds ), so its better to do it right at first time or try to, rather than cutting corners and do it later at a much very costly option.

I learned this with digital. I was happy with my S2 until I slapped a 17-35 2.8 AFS on it, loaned from a friend. ( this was a few good years ago, 17-55 wasn't even on plans ) It opened my eyes - it seemed a new camera. So instead of buying junk or inferior grade lens to TRY to archive what I wanted , I tried to buy what I really wanted , within limits of course. The 500 F4 L from canon was always a wet dream than a necessity, etc.

So dont rush to buy because you have to. Again, step back ( its the most difficult part ) and think. Take a few shoots more with the D200, see what focal lengths you use the most.

You like the MP ? Fine, use the D200 for a couple of weeks ONLY in manual mode. Did you like it ? No ? Back to the M7/6, they have aperture priority.

For almost a decade, I used aperture priority on my cameras and was a slave of it. Was tough to get out, but now its pure joy : I setup the speed in my brain before I raise the camera and then point and make adjustments. Its just brings a smile when I see that I choose, without a meter, a correct exposure. It was the better cpu of all time : my brain

Again, I think going over a D200 for a MP is a giant step. Can be done, but it requires tough self discipline.

I see that your lens lineup is a 17-55 and 70-200 , both very fine lens in the Nikon camp ( had them both ) but one things "worries" me : they are long.

Ie, 17 * 1.5 = roughly 26mm. Thats close to 28mm , the widest supported in the viewfinder for a Leica M ( wider can be user with optional viewfinders )

Than you have that 70-200, guessing that you use from 120-to-170mm , theres no equivalent in Leica land ( M that is ) for that focal lenght.

Are you sure will be happy with one lens that has no zoom ? 50mm aint a bit shorter ? 75 1.4 is tough to find used and there goes the small camera and lens thingy. 90's are big and fat as well.

My last advice ? Read and read. Use your D200 manually for a couple of weeks and get a cheap 50mm 1.8 Nikkor if you dont have one yourself : precious little gem. Avoid the zooms. Remember, you will have a new zooming option : your feet.

It will force you to interact with the picture, you have to get up and close to take a picture. No more tele with zooms. Go there, ask, can I take a picture or simple smile and take away. Dont chimp. Turn off AF. Manual focus.

If you did not like it, avoid the MP, repeat for next two weeks in aperture mode, but still with the 50mm, AF off and manual focusing. Liked it ? Go to a store say that you will buy a M6 or M7 but would like to take one off for a spin, even just one afternoon. Leave your D200 and VR lens as guarantee and take a M6 for an afternoon. That's what I did when I bought my M7.

Still did not like it ? Stick with digital. No pun intended. RF is a specialized camera , not a "all-types-possible" camera, like a DSLR. Maybe its not for you. Maybe it is.

Just dont jump on it because its a trend or fashion or just curiosity. For that you have much cheaper RF available.

And one last thing : if you do buy a Leica, my last ( ok ok, this time is the last ) advice is to get ONE lens only for the next 6-7 months. Yes, tempting will be to get a couple of lens to get a lineup. But one lens means that you will be more into getting a picture rather than changing lens, wishing that you had another focal length, if the 28 or the 35 are better here, etc. It simplifies things.

All the best in your quest,
 
I have a D200 -- then I got an Epson R-D1 (which led to an M8).

I suggest it as an alternative. I have little interest in going back to shooting film whether it be with a Leica, a Bessa or my Nikon F3 or my Nikon N8008 (both of which are just sitting on the shelf). Although I do plan to run a few rolls though my old Rolleiflex TLR -- one of these days!

A used R-D1 would be a great camera for you. Get a 35 (eff 52) for it. You'll definitely find it slows you down but with the flip screen you can decide whether or not to chimp or ignore it.

That's my take FWIW.

BTW, I still have and use my D200 (I have the same lenses, + others, as you do).
 
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