M8 Price Hike

[Roger Hicks]

I don't think affording the item and being able to afford losing it can be considered the same thing. I think one has to be far wealthier to afford losing the kit than one has to be to afford buying it! Also consider that risk is probability x impact. I work in a high risk environment and so using a Leica here is quite different to using one in rural Spain/France/Britain.

Surely, if you can't afford the risks of using it, you can't afford the camera. I fully take your point about relative risk, and indeed there are a few places where I'd use my old Konica instead of a Leica, such as the red-light district of Amsterdam. Even then, I suspect I may be unnecessarily cautious. What are you calling a 'high risk environment'? I use my Leicas in London, NYC, Delhi, etc., which are obviously far higher-risk than rural France or Spain (not sure about the UK).

Yes, I've had gear stolen (in Delhi and Moscow) but that's part of the risk of taking pictures.

Incidentally, Alpas are not slow to use.

Cheers,

R.

 

[jaapv]

the pathetic rationalizations of an M8 owner? 😕

Nope - a comment on marketing manipulation of pliable consumers.
Horses for courses. I have no need for excessively high ISO numbers in my M8. It is not a camera for the type of shooting that would be facilitated by that feature.The M8 is not my sole photographic tool.

 

[pfoto]

What are you calling a 'high risk environment'?

I think Turtle is (or was) in Kabul, Afghanistan.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I think Turtle is (or was) in Kabul, Afghanistan.

Fair enough! That's why I asked. Some people regard a big city as a risk; others (with considerably more justification) might cite Kabul or Baghdad. My favourite was someone who asked if it was safe to go into English pubs.

In Kabul, I think I'd be a damn' sight more worried about my skin than my camera -- but even then, I can't help feeling that if I were willing to be there at all, I might also be willing to risk my cameras.

Cheers,

r.

 

[kevin m]

It is not a camera for the type of shooting that would be facilitated by that feature.

Are you kidding? You mean if the M8 (or M9) had the same clean high iso files as a Nikon D3 that wouldn't be an advantage to an RF shooter?

Your personal preferences aside, that does sound like rationalizing, I think. Most RF shooters would absolutely jump at a DRF with clean high iso files.

 

[kevin m]

Olsen, You're such an obvious bigot when it comes to anything American and never miss an opportunity to express it. Are you aware of how unattractive that is?

His comments aren't "un-American" in the least, he's simply pointing out what should be obvious: the weak dollar is our fault.

 

[Olsen]

That's because it hasn't meant much to most Americans. Most European imports, denominated in Euros, are luxury items, and many Americans don't buy them because they're too pricy.

Most American food is home-grown, or are even cheaper imports from Mexico. All denominated in dollars.

Most American clothing is imported from China or Vietnam, and until recently those currencies were rigidly linked to the dollar, so those prices didn't rise much either.

The Japanese yen has hovered right around 110 to the dollar for years.

We're only now beginning to see a bit of price inflation -- 5% now, last month over a year ago, but that's mostly oil.

Oil is one place where there's been a big increase, and it's still half the cost of European gas.

So, the fall of the dollar here mostly has meant that we're selling a hell of a lot more exports. A lot of Europeans seem to think that the strong Euro is some kind of victory; in fact, the larger economies in the world seem to desperately struggle to keep their currency down the scale, not up...

I'm thinking about buying a new Mercedes. But it'll be made here in the US, and denominated in dollars. A new "American" Benz can be had for a fairly competitive price. Porsches, made in Germany, are a different case -- I looked at a new Porsche C4s coupe today and they wanted $109,000, but that included a $4,000 aero pack (wing and front faring.) Europe is pricing itself out of business.

JC

I am just back from a short car trip from Oslo to Sweden. There we had to pay with Swedish kroners which is nominated 0,85 to Norwegian Kroner. - And so on. Over here, there is a lot of independent nations with different currencies. As such, the Euro is a 'victory' as a reform of creating a stable and strong currency. For nations like Italy and France this has meant a lot.

At first it just might look like a 'victory' that the US$ is nominated so low compared to European currencies. Now it and economically possible for quite ordinary Europeans to buy flats in NY or condo's in Florida. - If they have a job....

I said earlier here that it now have dawned on the powerful operators in the currency market that they themselves will be in a very difficult spot 'if the dollar crashes'. European national banks, along with those of the Middle East, Russia, China etc. now see that they have to 'do all they can to keep the dollar up'. Right now US multinationals sells dollar and the above mentioned banks that buys them....

European economy is now slowing down. One of the reasons is 'the low dollar to the Euro', but not only. The rising oil cost is another and the US financial crisis is yet another. European banks are deep in 'financial toxic waste' derived from the 'foreclosure crisis' in the US. Surely, in many European countries have - or will have similar local crisis on their hands. Spain and UK have been mentioned. That s't hasn't reached the fan yet.

I have repeatedly said this; 'we are in this together'. A low dollar will hit employment in Europe.

 

[Olsen]

Olsen, You're such an obvious bigot when it comes to anything American and never miss an opportunity to express it. Are you aware of how unattractive that is?

I take this as an insult. I have many relatives in the US. I am proud of that. I have relatives who died for USA, - one is mentioned at the Pearl Harbour War Memorial and another at the Vietnam War memorial. Have you? There were several Olsen's who died at Gettisburg too. You owe me an apology.

I am a Norwegian citizen, however. A country that grants me the freedom of expressing whatever I want. I use that freedom to express my view on other countries policies - as well as that of my own country. You are obliged not to agree with me. That's OK. But that does not oblige you to throw tomatoes.

 

[John Camp]

Dear John,

You are quite right that it is a strange kind of 'victory', where the 'winner' pays. But equally, the relative strength of a nation's currency (or an economic bloc's currency, in the case of the euro) is a pretty good indication of the underlying strength and health of that economy. Were it otherwise, Zimbabwe would be an economic powerhouse.

In other words, a weak currency may bring short-term gains to some manufacturers, but it also has a number of undesirable effects. For example, a country's assets can be bought up by foreigners at bargain-basement prices, thus making the country's economy increasingly vulnerable to manupulation from outside.

As for exports, the USA has less and less to export. I used to buy made-in-USA Levis 501 jeans. Nowadays they are made all over the place: the pair I am wearing as I write this were bought in the USA but made in Colombia. I can't think of much that I have bought in the last few years that is made in America, and exported. Some Kodak products, to be sure -- and even then, I am not sure where the Kodak sensor in my M8 was actually made. But not much else, if anything.

So, overall, a weak currency is as hollow a 'victory' as a strong one.

Cheers,

Roger

America doesn't export much in the way of consumer products; most of it is heavy equipment. Think Caterpillar, John Deere, etc. And, of course, computer products. Are you using a European-based operating system on a European computer? (You may be - but most aren't.) Ever seen an iPod on a European street, or an iPhone? As far as 501s go, I think mine were made in Juarez, Mexico.

As to foreigners buying up the country, the U.S. IS a trading country -- outsiders are free to buy what they wish, and they then fall under US government regulation. If they want to move here, they can, and often do, and if they want to become citizens, that's good, too. Ronald Reagan (not my favorite president, I admit) once said something along the lines of, "You can't move to England and become an Englishman, and you can't move to France and become a Frenchman, but you can move to America and become an American"...which is one reason we don't worry much about foreign influence. We *like* hooking up with foreigners. The "manipulation" problem is mostly a myth, except as concerns oil, but that manipulation is right out in the open and I agree causes some great distress.

Also, you shouldn't fall into the trap (as Olsen sometimes does) of making straight-line projections. The pound in my lifetime has been worth as much as $4 and has fallen under $1.50 (IIRC) and lately was back at $2; as Europe continues to age, and as retirement promises kick in, the Euro will fall again. Then, in fifty years or so, it'll be back. Time passes.

What's going on now is not the apocalypse, it's just an economic wrinkle that will seem much less important in fifteen years.

JC

 

[Roger Hicks]

Ronald Reagan (not my favorite president, I admit) once said something along the lines of, "You can't move to England and become an Englishman . . .

Also, you shouldn't fall into the trap (as Olsen sometimes does) of making straight-line projections. The pound in my lifetime has been worth as much as $4 and has fallen under $1.50 (IIRC) and lately was back at $2; as Europe continues to age, and as retirement promises kick in, the Euro will fall again. Then, in fifty years or so, it'll be back. Time passes.

Dear John,

We are in substantial agreement, that this is not the apocalypse, and believe me, I am more aware than you of currency fluctuations. In the early 80s, the dollar approached parity with the pound. And I was living in Bermuda (and intermittently working for Uncle Sam) in the late 60s when the pound was revalued from $2.80 to $2.40 and Artful 'Arold gave his famous lying speech that 'the pound in your pocket is not worth a penny less than yesterday'.

My sole point was that a weak currency is no more desirable tham one that is unrealistically overvalued.

As for the point about moving to England, etc., I think Ronnie was doing something he was good at: saying something feel-good, but substantially meaningless. My wife moved to the UK (in the early 80s -- see above); became a British subject; is now more at home in the UK than the USA. What more definition of 'an Englishman' or 'an American' had you (or Ronnie) in mind?

Cheers,

R.

 

[jaapv]

Are you kidding? You mean if the M8 (or M9) had the same clean high iso files as a Nikon D3 that wouldn't be an advantage to an RF shooter?

Your personal preferences aside, that does sound like rationalizing, I think. Most RF shooters would absolutely jump at a DRF with clean high iso files.

Most fine-art printers add noise....A large number of DRF users would prefer an ISO 80 setting.

 

[Peter Pommes]

I take this as an insult. I have many relatives in the US. I am proud of that.

Why are You proud of having relatives in another country? I too have relatives in another country and it only makes me sad how long it takes me to visit them.

 

[Olsen]

America doesn't export much in the way of consumer products; most of it is heavy equipment. Think Caterpillar, John Deere, etc. And, of course, computer products. Are you using a European-based operating system on a European computer? (You may be - but most aren't.) Ever seen an iPod on a European street, or an iPhone? As far as 501s go, I think mine were made in Juarez, Mexico.

As to foreigners buying up the country, the U.S. IS a trading country -- outsiders are free to buy what they wish, and they then fall under US government regulation. If they want to move here, they can, and often do, and if they want to become citizens, that's good, too. Ronald Reagan (not my favorite president, I admit) once said something along the lines of, "You can't move to England and become an Englishman, and you can't move to France and become a Frenchman, but you can move to America and become an American"...which is one reason we don't worry much about foreign influence. We *like* hooking up with foreigners. The "manipulation" problem is mostly a myth, except as concerns oil, but that manipulation is right out in the open and I agree causes some great distress.

Also, you shouldn't fall into the trap (as Olsen sometimes does) of making straight-line projections. The pound in my lifetime has been worth as much as $4 and has fallen under $1.50 (IIRC) and lately was back at $2; as Europe continues to age, and as retirement promises kick in, the Euro will fall again. Then, in fifty years or so, it'll be back. Time passes.

What's going on now is not the apocalypse, it's just an economic wrinkle that will seem much less important in fifteen years.

JC

You must show me the 'streight line projections' I am supposed to have made....

Today: The most important export from USA is 'software' - ref. Microsoft etc.

I worked for more than 10 years for Caterpillar, - and knew 'Blackie', the old and legendary CEO, and have met 'Jim' Owens - several times - the Current CEO, when he was stationed in Geneve back in the 70'. He's a little older than me so I really can't fathom that he has the strength to carry such 'heavy' job at his age. Impressive. I wish him luck. The guy I was closest to at Caterpillar was Jim Chesko, who, I believe, is a journalist - or something, at Wall Street today.

Caterpillar is indeed a company that should be doing well with a low dollar. Their US production facilities, like in Peoria, Ill, will be more competetive - and income from their overseas facilities will be more profitable - in dollars. I worked for Caterpillar last time the dollar hit 'bellow NOK 5,00', in the late 70'and early 80'. Then we were doing very well.

Back then USA could carry a low dollar with ease since USA was still a major 'creditor nation'; a lot of countries owed them money. Today it is the other way around. The dollar will come back to new hights, but not without a price. That will be 'higher interest rate' which will be tough to bare for ordinary Americans.

 

[Olsen]

To me the general sentiment here in Europe is that sliding dollar is perceived not as European victory but more as U.S. administration failure. And that's what it is. Dollar devaluation is not a sinister plot by European Central Bank, but a side effect of recent American domestic and foreign policy. Europe has nothing to do with it.

Very well put.