jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Again, the prices haven't gone up, in fact they have gone slightly down. Only the Dollar has gone down faster.Now if the US governement had been buying Leicas instead of ordnance to lug at inhabitants of middle-east countries, the price of the M8 in the USA might look a lot different.....
Roger Hicks
Veteran
And the high end coupled rangefinder, interchangeable lens digital camera market was, is, and will continue to be different again.
An M8 has a lot of computer in it -- and a lot of hand-assembled mechanical engineering. Also, it's not a mass-market disposable or semi-disposable item.
Cheers,
R.
Ben Z
Veteran
Jaap, if the Pentagon bought them, Leica would be on easy street. They would pay probably $50,000 apiece...based on the typically inflated prices they pay for everything they buy under government contract. Of course not all if it would filter back to Solms
Olsen
Well-known
Jaap, if the Pentagon bought them, Leica would be on easy street. They would pay probably $50,000 apiece...based on the typically inflated prices they pay for everything they buy under government contract. Of course not all if it would filter back to Solms
Ha, ha, ha!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Jaap, if the Pentagon bought them, Leica would be on easy street. They would pay probably $50,000 apiece...based on the typically inflated prices they pay for everything they buy under government contract. Of course not all if it would filter back to Solms
Plus $5,000 for the charger, $3,000 each for extra batteries, a minimum of $10,000 per lens, $1,000 each for lens caps, $2,000 for lens hoods...
All right: I AM convinced that Leica should also manufacture in the USA...
Even after Halliburton's cut, they'd be doing well. (Who else remembers the Jefferson Airplane line, 'War's good business so invest your son...'?)
Cheers,
R.
retow
Well-known
Not again an anti American statement from you. Will you never learn? But Mr Olsen the self appointed economic ORACLE to Norway is entitled to criticise, or should I say offend, everybody and anything. How depicable
retow
Well-known
I agree that it will be different to some extent. But it will be interesting to see how far the tolerance and loyalty of the Leica community can be stretched, if noise free iso 3200 performance and FF become the new high end "standard", priced significantly below the only (?) digital RF . Anyway, I enjoy the discussion and eventually, future will tell.
Best
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Stupid Ferrari. I can't buy one. I hope they go under. My Yugo can do anything a Ferrari can!
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
You know what that means: they'll undermine the workers' union, move the production to China, and then we'll be mysteriously coming down with heavy-metal toxicity levels which will all be played down by both co-complicit governments.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I'll tell you when I want to take an extreme wideangle photograph of a black cat in a coal cellar
High-Iso noise is rapidly replacing Megapixels as the marketing's touchstone of "quality"
retow
Well-known
I'll tell you when I want to take an extreme wideangle photograph of a black cat in a coal cellar
Yes, but please watch your steps in the darkness or else you might fall down a cliff as in one of your more recent Africa Safaris
jack palmer
Well-known
Olsen, You're such an obvious bigot when it comes to anything American and never miss an opportunity to express it. Are you aware of how unattractive that is?
spikey
Dilettant
my car does not have ABS ......
my car does not have ABS ......
its the one on the right .... and I still like it. It is a replica, unlike the one on the left, that goes for $ 500k.
Does anyone have to buy either, would it not be cheaper (and better) to buy a current model GT3 ... more reliable, aircon, abs, airbags? So why do some people persevere - and not collecting, but actually use the classic stuff in competition?
We build replicas for customers, and a good competitive one starts at 200k. It is in the right hands as quick as a modern car, and delivers a more pure experience.
Sadly, quite a few of our customers lock the car away in their collection, never experiencing the thrill of pure driving.
We get a lot of inquiries that don't lead to sales, because of the cost. A few years ago you could build a competitive car for $ 60k.
Are we making millions? Sadly no, we break even (hopefully).
Niche markets ....
my car does not have ABS ......
its the one on the right .... and I still like it. It is a replica, unlike the one on the left, that goes for $ 500k.
Does anyone have to buy either, would it not be cheaper (and better) to buy a current model GT3 ... more reliable, aircon, abs, airbags? So why do some people persevere - and not collecting, but actually use the classic stuff in competition?
We build replicas for customers, and a good competitive one starts at 200k. It is in the right hands as quick as a modern car, and delivers a more pure experience.
Sadly, quite a few of our customers lock the car away in their collection, never experiencing the thrill of pure driving.
We get a lot of inquiries that don't lead to sales, because of the cost. A few years ago you could build a competitive car for $ 60k.
Are we making millions? Sadly no, we break even (hopefully).
Niche markets ....
Attachments
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
the pathetic rationalizations of an M8 owner?
Here, have another megapixel.
John Camp
Well-known
That's because it hasn't meant much to most Americans. Most European imports, denominated in Euros, are luxury items, and many Americans don't buy them because they're too pricy.
Most American food is home-grown, or are even cheaper imports from Mexico. All denominated in dollars.
Most American clothing is imported from China or Vietnam, and until recently those currencies were rigidly linked to the dollar, so those prices didn't rise much either.
The Japanese yen has hovered right around 110 to the dollar for years.
We're only now beginning to see a bit of price inflation -- 5% now, last month over a year ago, but that's mostly oil.
Oil is one place where there's been a big increase, and it's still half the cost of European gas.
So, the fall of the dollar here mostly has meant that we're selling a hell of a lot more exports. A lot of Europeans seem to think that the strong Euro is some kind of victory; in fact, the larger economies in the world seem to desperately struggle to keep their currency down the scale, not up...
I'm thinking about buying a new Mercedes. But it'll be made here in the US, and denominated in dollars. A new "American" Benz can be had for a fairly competitive price. Porsches, made in Germany, are a different case -- I looked at a new Porsche C4s coupe today and they wanted $109,000, but that included a $4,000 aero pack (wing and front faring.) Europe is pricing itself out of business.
JC
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Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear John,
You are quite right that it is a strange kind of 'victory', where the 'winner' pays. But equally, the relative strength of a nation's currency (or an economic bloc's currency, in the case of the euro) is a pretty good indication of the underlying strength and health of that economy. Were it otherwise, Zimbabwe would be an economic powerhouse.
In other words, a weak currency may bring short-term gains to some manufacturers, but it also has a number of undesirable effects. For example, a country's assets can be bought up by foreigners at bargain-basement prices, thus making the country's economy increasingly vulnerable to manupulation from outside.
As for exports, the USA has less and less to export. I used to buy made-in-USA Levis 501 jeans. Nowadays they are made all over the place: the pair I am wearing as I write this were bought in the USA but made in Colombia. I can't think of much that I have bought in the last few years that is made in America, and exported. Some Kodak products, to be sure -- and even then, I am not sure where the Kodak sensor in my M8 was actually made. But not much else, if anything.
So, overall, a weak currency is as hollow a 'victory' as a strong one.
Cheers,
Roger
V
varjag
Guest
To me the general sentiment here in Europe is that sliding dollar is perceived not as European victory but more as U.S. administration failure. And that's what it is. Dollar devaluation is not a sinister plot by European Central Bank, but a side effect of recent American domestic and foreign policy. Europe has nothing to do with it.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Eugene,
Interesting point: you can lose, but you can't win. In other words, it's a question of which economy can out-mismanage the other.
There's also the fact that the so-called 'credit crunch' has very interesting effects. Because it's housing-driven (and US-housing-driven, at that), US interest rates are being kept artificially low, which in turn implies a weak dollar.
Without the 'credit crunch' -- a result of housing lenders making what they believed (on the basis of insufficient intelligence) to be one-way bets -- US interest rates could be significantly higher, and the dollar a lot stronger.
The nature of the one-way bet is interesting too. In France, a lender is responsible for making sure that borrowers can repay what they are loaned. If the lender is irresponsible, he has to 'eat' the loan. In the UK, on the other hand, when I was on the point of selling my last house in order to move to France, I was advised to lie by a mortgage company employee in order to remortgage my UK house and buy a French house at the same time.
No wonder the UK is sometimes referred to as the 51st state.
Cheers,
Roger
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Turtle
Veteran
I think prices have rises appreciably above inflation, but maybe I am wrong and I realise this has been compounded by the USD's fall.
I don't think affording the item and being able to afford losing it can be considered the same thing. I think one has to be far wealthier to afford losing the kit than one has to be to afford buying it! Also consider that risk is probability x impact. I work in a high risk environment and so using a Leica here is quite different to using one in rural Spain/France/Britain. I sold my Leica 50 Lux asph LHSA partly because on a MP I am carting about about 8k which is silly in such a place. A MP + planar is not nearly so bad!
I have priced alpas and think they are priced well beyond my means as they stand presently. however, I am equally sure that my Mamiya 7II is the better tool for me, regardless of price. As wonderful as the alpas are, if I want slow and deliberate I shoot 5x4/5x7. If I want to hand hold with a big neg, the Mamiya 7 is all I personally need. I can understand the appeal however...
Luxury is not something for one who cannot afford it to sneer at I agree and I do not begrudge those who own lots of Leicas and Alpas, but wonder how much great work will be made using them in the years to come. I find that rather sad. I do not like the thought of something that should be a tool, that should be producing great work, being absent from the hands of those who would use them for what they were created. This is not some form of communist leaning BTW - I realise the practicalities! Its just a desire to see them in more widespread use rather than get the feeling they are increasingly restricted to collectors who play with them outside once in a while. I have had both my MPs here...and all my lenses - this is what they were made for and they do a wonderful job!
retow
Well-known
You are spot on. As posted here earlier. The Euro is only relatively strong, since currency wise it is the only alternative to the USD. I.e. the present structural problems of the US economy are more severe and of different nature and rootcause than the European Union (not to be confused with Europe) ones.
But don't be mistaken the one long term and unescapable issue European politicians are in denial of but will have to start addressing soon, is colossal. The aging of its population, and the pace thereof, is of a dimension unseen before in mankinds history.
In a very simplified, not trivialised way, the recent "boom" in Europe was built on steeply growing Asian and Russian demand for European technology, know how, services and certain brand products. The former one, caused largeley because of US demand for made in China and others. If the US consumer starts to sneeze, Asia might catch a cold and, with some time lag, Europe the flu.