Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
McDonald's just LOWERED the price of their cheeseburgers, and steaks just went up. I guess real meat is a luxury more than a technological product.Tuolumne said:
Ben Z
Veteran
Well at least the M8 is a new product and there may still be enough people who still want one to support higher prices. But 2 years ago or thereabouts, the sales of the MP and M7 were already down to a slow eb and yet Leica raised the prices of the MP and M7 by $1000 here in the USA. Of course that was under their old CEO, the one they fired when they were on the verge of bankruptcy 
x-ray
Veteran
I wouldn't touch one at the old price or even half the old price. I know some will argue but the M8 offers nothing over the 1DmkIII at less money and particularly the new 1DsIII for a bit more. Now don't give me that brain washed leica stuff.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Braaaaaiiiiinnns!x-ray said:
Motorcycle = SUV. Why can't my motorcycle have a DVD player and fit in a family of eight? They both run on gasoline and are drivable on the streets.
Braaaaiiiiins!
R
rpsawin
Guest
Gabriel M.A. said:
My guess is that they lowered the % of real meat in their burgers to offset that decrease. BTW...what is in that stuff really? I can't eat a Mc D's meal without getting sick.
Bob
x-ray
Veteran
wordpress said:
That's exactly who they're aimed at. It's such a limited function piece of gear and performance is limited IMO. Just compare features and reliability. Image quality is questionably better than even the 5D. My personal experience with recent Leica gear has been extremely disappointing. More failures from new lenses and body than all the Nikon and Canon gear that I've owned and used over decades. I'm certainly not going to sink $5000+ in a limited function camera. Next year I'll most likely update my 1DsII bodies to 1DsIII's. Over three years of hard use on these and two years on my previous 1Ds, and 1D with absolutely no problems. Hundreds of thousands of frames later they're still clicking like new. During the same period one new MP, and 4 recent M lenses in the shop and only a fraction of use through them. Reliability and support are a big part of any pro system and leica fails here. Old M equipemnt is another matter but we're talking new and a totally unproven camera.
I'm happy for those that love their M8. It's purely a personal thing as to whether it's the right camera for you and we all know that leica needs all the business thy can get.
Last edited:
Ben Z
Veteran
x-ray said:
It offers me a camera with an optical viewfinder and simple manual control over exposure and focus that I can carry easily all day, in a bag small enough to hold on my lap on a bus or subway or in a restaurant, use anywhere without attracting attention, and fit easily in a hotel room safe. I had a 1D and zooms, I couldn't do any of those things with it. I have a 20D and while it isn't very heavy, it and the lenses, even primes, take a much larger bag and make me uncomfortable. The M8 was a lot of money and though the raw files need less sharpening than my 20D, the end-result prints aren't $4000 better. I used film-eating M's because of ergonomic reasons, and those are the reasons I gave in and bought an M8. I'm sure the Canon 1DsIII is killer but I'm done schlepping that kind of artillery around.
Last edited:
ywenz
Veteran
I think some are more concerned of the final image. Others are more concerned of the means to achieve the final image. Both arguments are valid given the context.
dll927
Well-known
I assume the prices of "lesser" Ms are going up too, such as M7 & MP. Nothing like pricing yourself out of the market. That's what the U. S. did with cameras back in about the 1950s.
x-ray
Veteran
Ben Z - Glad you like the M8. You have a good reason to buy and enjoy it. I'm not saying it doesn't have it's place because it does but not for me atleast untill there's some major improvements and performance issues are addressed. No question the files are very good but so are the Canons and Nikons. As you say tho you can't put a 1DsIII in your pocket but I don't put my M's in my pocket either. We just do different kinds of photography so we use different tools.
Ben Z
Veteran
dll927 said:
Marketing has come a long way since the 1950's, particularly since computers made it possible to gather and sort data, and to apply it to various model strategies before going public. I'm not ready to assume Leica's marketing boys aren't using all the tools of the trade. So I'm very careful not to make the assumption that just because I bought an M8 means I'm in Leica's target market. Nor that because another $500-$1000 in price would turn me away, Leica's pricing itself out of the market. For all I know someone for whom $1000 is a big deal isn't who Leica's aiming at. It sure looks that way.
Last edited:
tomasis
Well-known
x-ray, your comments here in RFF are very meaningless. I mean that part you talk about DSLR. Yeah you get high quality at cheap price from heavy DSLR. How about to get good pictures? how about the quality of prints? you know that M8 blow away most advanced DSLR thanks to many features such as a lack of AA, nice firmware and at least most important thing LENSES!! DMR already proved it. How Canon can be dumb to release 21mpx 1ds for "tiny" lenses when it'd be better suited for MF lenses? it is hilarious and very sad attempt to brainwash their poor customers with numbers. The higher the better, they seem to think so. Why not to interpolate a M8 file and say that it is 1ds III file
after all, it is about photographing at serious level so the price is no object for those photographers to get right tools. M8 is not marketed for amateurs at first hand but true professionals who needs a rugged camera with RF VF. I'd say same thing about 1D mark III. Amateurs who complain about price, can go and buy Leica IIc.
Someone said that the 10mp sensor is outdated. Why the hell we need more if one can print M8 file at A3 format or even larger. Are we planing to print larger papers when we got higher MP?
after all, it is about photographing at serious level so the price is no object for those photographers to get right tools. M8 is not marketed for amateurs at first hand but true professionals who needs a rugged camera with RF VF. I'd say same thing about 1D mark III. Amateurs who complain about price, can go and buy Leica IIc.
Someone said that the 10mp sensor is outdated. Why the hell we need more if one can print M8 file at A3 format or even larger. Are we planing to print larger papers when we got higher MP?
Ben Z
Veteran
x-ray said:
I don't need it to fit in my pockets (although, I could get most of it in a photo vest, it's not secure enough against pickpockets), just a Domke F5XB with room for M8, 4 lenses, a flash, and my portable HD. I can't do that with my 20D, and the 1D body alone wouldn't fit in that bag.
Ben Z
Veteran
tomasis said:
Sorry, I don't buy it. And I'm an M8 owner. For every crappy, boring, amateur snapshot (mine included) taken with an M8 or a DMR, there are thousands of beautiful images made by talented (and well-paid) photographers with Canons, Nikons, Mamiyas, Hasselblads, and what have you. My feeling is that while there may be quantifiable differences between one brand and another and on a purely specification level there might be a hierarchy, in practical use by people with a handle on the postprocessing workflow, the differences are so slight that as always it comes down to the skill and talent of the photographer far and above all else. This attitude from a tiny bunch of mostly amateur Leica users that they have the inside dope on image quality and tens of thousands of professional photographers, their editors, clients, and customers are all too blind, stupid or cheap to recognize it, is just plain preposterous.
Last edited:
x-ray
Veteran
tomasis said:x-ray, your comments here in RFF are very meaningless. I mean that part you talk about DSLR. Yeah you get high quality at cheap price from heavy DSLR. How about to get good pictures? how about the quality of prints? you know that M8 blow away most advanced DSLR thanks to many features such as a lack of AA, nice firmware and at least most important thing LENSES!! DMR already proved it. How Canon can be dumb to release 21mpx 1ds for "tiny" lenses when it'd be better suited for MF lenses? it is hilarious and very sad attempt to brainwash their poor customers with numbers. The higher the better, they seem to think so. Why not to interpolate a M8 file and say that it is 1ds III file
after all, it is about photographing at serious level so the price is no object for those photographers to get right tools. M8 is not marketed for amateurs at first hand but true professionals who needs a rugged camera with RF VF. I'd say same thing about 1D mark III. Amateurs who complain about price, can go and buy Leica IIc.
Someone said that the 10mp sensor is outdated. Why the hell we need more if one can print M8 file at A3 format or even larger. Are we planing to print larger papers when we got higher MP?
I don't want to pick a fight with you but your off base with your comments. Digital files have only so mych information and no more. Interpolation doesn't add information, AA filter or not. You can not add information that isn't there. As you enlarge you also spread out that information and artifacts, noise etc which becomes much more apparent. 10mp will only go so far and 21 will go farther.
The pictures and prints are fantastic. I routinely enlarge my images for clients up to 24x36 with absolutely no strain. I have no reservations that they will enlarge even more with no problem. The image quality is more than sufficient to satisfy national and international clients. At the moment I'm shooting a catalog for one the larger national clients, W. R. Case.
I have to disagree with the marketing to pros. I've used Leica longer than any other system, 39 years, and nikon 37 years with canon 6 years. Leica falls very short of professional service where both Nikon and Canon take the pro market very seriously. both have pro service anf loaner services free of charge for the professional market. All I have to do is call canon CPS and request a lens or body for tomorrow morning and it appears via Fedex on my door step first thing in the morning. I can use it free of charg for a couple of weeks and all I have to do is pay shipping back. Repairs are three days including shipping and if it runs longer then they loan you a camera or lens untill uyours is fixed. Where's Leica on this one? The 10mp sensor is at the minimum for most clients requirements. Some won't accept anything less than 12mp. It's a fact of life in the professional world. Most will not accept interpolated files.
Canon and Nikon make some of the finest glass ever. Where's Leicas 24mm f1.4, 85mm 1.2, 135mm f2, 200mm f1,8, Nikkor 300mm F2 (yes f2), 600mm F4, Tilt shift 24, 45 and 90mm's. Micro lenses and more? If you don't believe they make some of the best glass then you have no real experience with their glass.
21mp isn't a sad attempt to brain wash customers. It's another step forward in progress and technology. You may not have the need but others of us do.
x-ray
Veteran
Ben Z said:
Thanks Ben, nicely said.
I sling my camera on my sholder or in as small a bag as possible. I rarely shoot digital for my personal work or documentary work. Most of my commercial is digital but more and more is film again. I'm finding some clients allow me to make that decision as to what's the best route. I sell film in some cases as the high quality alternative, MF and LF. Film isn't right for everything and neither is digital. I shoot film or my documentary work for a number of reasons and like to fraw a line between the commercial and the fun work.
gb hill
Veteran
ErikFive said:It would have been more like Volvo and Range Rover announce a new 4x4 and Chevrolet would announce a price increase on their Escalade
Edit: If we are talking performance
No offence taking but you must be pretty drunk because the Escalade is made by Cadallac
HAnkg
Well-known
While the image quality is very good on the M8 (when I compared files side by side with the old 1Ds and the current 5D it is marginally better) so is the quality from every other DSLR in the $1600 to $8000 price range. Leica lenses are great but so was my Canon 35/1.4 L, 135/2 L and 90 TSE.
Why the M8? Small footprint, RF focusing, simple interface with analogue controls, handling that is pretty close to film M. Much less intimidating then sticking a monster DSLR in someones face in situations where you are trying to be a fly on the wall.
I've been using DSLR's exclusively for years as I am 100% digital. Not because I prefer using a big heavy SLR but because there was no alternative. Now for work in the range of 35 to 75 (90% of what I do) I have an alternative. For macro and tilt-shift and anything over 90 = DSLR. I have had no problems at all. I can carry the whole kit in a space the size of your average zoom lens.
I don't ascribe any mystical qualities to Leica's products and for my money there is not as much difference as there use to be betwwen IQ and lens quality in the age of digital and computer designed lenses. CV makes some incredible lenses for $400. I put a very high premium on the ergonomics of a camera. The viewfinder, the controls and handle of a camera. On that score all the digicams score very low for me. Of course if I can't have the tool I want I'll use the tool I can get -I used big 1 series DSLR's for years. I'm happy Leica is providing an alternative.
Why the M8? Small footprint, RF focusing, simple interface with analogue controls, handling that is pretty close to film M. Much less intimidating then sticking a monster DSLR in someones face in situations where you are trying to be a fly on the wall.
I've been using DSLR's exclusively for years as I am 100% digital. Not because I prefer using a big heavy SLR but because there was no alternative. Now for work in the range of 35 to 75 (90% of what I do) I have an alternative. For macro and tilt-shift and anything over 90 = DSLR. I have had no problems at all. I can carry the whole kit in a space the size of your average zoom lens.
I don't ascribe any mystical qualities to Leica's products and for my money there is not as much difference as there use to be betwwen IQ and lens quality in the age of digital and computer designed lenses. CV makes some incredible lenses for $400. I put a very high premium on the ergonomics of a camera. The viewfinder, the controls and handle of a camera. On that score all the digicams score very low for me. Of course if I can't have the tool I want I'll use the tool I can get -I used big 1 series DSLR's for years. I'm happy Leica is providing an alternative.
retow
Well-known
gb hill said:No offence taking but you must be pretty drunk because the Escalade is made by Cadallac
It is all GM anyway, so what is the difference?
retow
Well-known
Where can you get files of the same or better quality produced by a smaller or sime size body and lenses at the same or even a lower prize?