ducttape
Established
I am getting ready to take the plunge on an M8, but of course have the usually concerns about it being cheaper 'tomorrow'.
Bought new, my M6 and M7 held up fairly well in value. In fact, I think my M7 bought new at $2400 or so is now over $3 new. (Warms the cockles of my heart) My D200 is too new to tell. Used, I bought my RD1 slightly used and think I got a bunch of the depreciation out of the way. I think MSRP is still the same (about 3 grand) but the used market seems to have softened a bit. There seems to be a floor for the pricing on the used Leica and Voigt glass.
Yet, at almost 5 bills, I am a little less willing to be cavalier about this. I would like to avoid waking up in a year to find out these are $3500 new, $2500 used.
I realize there is a 'new factor' built into the price of the camera today. Still, the question all this verbiage is getting to is:
Does anyone have experience with the digital back from Leica, or Hassy or any other pro high end as far as pricing is concerned? a) do they drop in price in a major way once the factory can catch up to demand and b) in the secondary market, do they retain their value better than say a consumer point and shoot
Having the RD1, I don't HAVE to have the M8 tomorrow. (I'll deal with the GAS somehow...) Am I better off waiting for the MSRP to go down, or for used to appear, or, won't those have an effect on the price.
Opinions?
Thx
David
Bought new, my M6 and M7 held up fairly well in value. In fact, I think my M7 bought new at $2400 or so is now over $3 new. (Warms the cockles of my heart) My D200 is too new to tell. Used, I bought my RD1 slightly used and think I got a bunch of the depreciation out of the way. I think MSRP is still the same (about 3 grand) but the used market seems to have softened a bit. There seems to be a floor for the pricing on the used Leica and Voigt glass.
Yet, at almost 5 bills, I am a little less willing to be cavalier about this. I would like to avoid waking up in a year to find out these are $3500 new, $2500 used.
I realize there is a 'new factor' built into the price of the camera today. Still, the question all this verbiage is getting to is:
Does anyone have experience with the digital back from Leica, or Hassy or any other pro high end as far as pricing is concerned? a) do they drop in price in a major way once the factory can catch up to demand and b) in the secondary market, do they retain their value better than say a consumer point and shoot
Having the RD1, I don't HAVE to have the M8 tomorrow. (I'll deal with the GAS somehow...) Am I better off waiting for the MSRP to go down, or for used to appear, or, won't those have an effect on the price.
Opinions?
Thx
David
HAnkg
Well-known
Prices on used high-end digital hold up until the next model and then drop like a stone. Canon 1Ds new was 8K if I remember correctly, used today maybe 2500. The 1Ds had a good long run though. Product cycles with Leica are likely to be longer so unless Zeiss or CV have a surprise up their sleeve you could wait a long time for prices to come down.
PaulN
Monkey
I am in a similar boat; I have an MP, which I bought new at $1k less than the current price and I have an R-D1. I've shot over 15k pictures with my R-D1 and love it. It has been greatly received by my wife, who now considers it "her camera" and I've gone back to mainly shooting film. I am considering an M8 based on image quality and all of the great reviews.
I just can't get a feel for the problems that it has though. The R-D1 was prone to flaws; I had 2 bodies with flaws before I had a winner. Had I known how easy it was to adjust vertical alignment, I would have kept my original one as it was perfect except for a misaligned patch. It was late 2004 though, and they had just started to become available; RFF hadn't even setup a forum yet.
Which camera body has had worse problems? R-D1 or M8? My gut tells me that the R-D1 problems were quality control issues, whereas the M8 has some design flaws. I still am strongly considering one though.
I'm not as concerned about price as I am technology. Eventually, Kodak will have a 10MP sensor (which are getting cheaper and cheaper to produce, as soon every p&s will have one) that will not be sensitive to IR. Either that or they'll create microlenses that are IR filters and remove the need for the external filter. Once that happens, I'm sure the M8 will be revised and those original purchasers will be out of luck, or will be facing a $1k+ retrofit. And once the problems are fixed on the 2nd generation, how many are going to flood the market with the gen-1 "flawed" models?
If they fix all of the M8 problems (IR, cyan drifts, firmware, sudden death, menu-selectable lens detection, etc) and call it the M8p (perfect? hah), would there be a market for the original M8? And if so, what are we talking about for price? $2k?
If I had a choice, I know that I would purchase the revised model as I wouldn't have to deal with the additional costs of this model. However, if that revised model is 2+ years off, I'll take my lumps and pickup the current M8 and maximize the usage until the next model comes out and make a strong evaluation of the two.
Leica will unfortunately never tell us when the next model is coming out because the market for the current model will drop out from under them. They have to recoup their r&d costs.
I just can't get a feel for the problems that it has though. The R-D1 was prone to flaws; I had 2 bodies with flaws before I had a winner. Had I known how easy it was to adjust vertical alignment, I would have kept my original one as it was perfect except for a misaligned patch. It was late 2004 though, and they had just started to become available; RFF hadn't even setup a forum yet.
Which camera body has had worse problems? R-D1 or M8? My gut tells me that the R-D1 problems were quality control issues, whereas the M8 has some design flaws. I still am strongly considering one though.
I'm not as concerned about price as I am technology. Eventually, Kodak will have a 10MP sensor (which are getting cheaper and cheaper to produce, as soon every p&s will have one) that will not be sensitive to IR. Either that or they'll create microlenses that are IR filters and remove the need for the external filter. Once that happens, I'm sure the M8 will be revised and those original purchasers will be out of luck, or will be facing a $1k+ retrofit. And once the problems are fixed on the 2nd generation, how many are going to flood the market with the gen-1 "flawed" models?
If they fix all of the M8 problems (IR, cyan drifts, firmware, sudden death, menu-selectable lens detection, etc) and call it the M8p (perfect? hah), would there be a market for the original M8? And if so, what are we talking about for price? $2k?
If I had a choice, I know that I would purchase the revised model as I wouldn't have to deal with the additional costs of this model. However, if that revised model is 2+ years off, I'll take my lumps and pickup the current M8 and maximize the usage until the next model comes out and make a strong evaluation of the two.
Leica will unfortunately never tell us when the next model is coming out because the market for the current model will drop out from under them. They have to recoup their r&d costs.
HAnkg
Well-known
No one can predict the fuure but I can't see any chip provider developing technology that is aimed at the tiny RF market. Leica and anyone else creating digital RF's will be working with components adapted from other applications. That being the case I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the M9. You are likely to get years of use out of the M8 and make a lot of images. If you shoot 1,000's of shots a month the value equation is different then for someone who shoots the equivalent of a couple of rolls of film a month. So it depends on how you'll be using it and how important having RF digital as opposed to a DSLR alternative is to you.
ducttape
Established
Paul, good point. Once the 'problems' are fixed, the M8(lite) will of course be discounted.
But by the same token, Hank, depending on how many pics I take a month, waiting, or the expense of, is a relative point.
In other words, I'm back to where I started! :bang:
Seriously, high end does tend to hold up until the next model cycle, and historically Leica has not been a model year type of product. I would imagine they have a lot of r&d to amortize through the M8. I guess (hope) then Leica would probably run with this a while.
But by the same token, Hank, depending on how many pics I take a month, waiting, or the expense of, is a relative point.
In other words, I'm back to where I started! :bang:
Seriously, high end does tend to hold up until the next model cycle, and historically Leica has not been a model year type of product. I would imagine they have a lot of r&d to amortize through the M8. I guess (hope) then Leica would probably run with this a while.
grduprey
Gene
If you are worried about the pricing, then don't buy it. You cannot look at this as an investment, only as a tool. It is indeed an expensive camera, but then so is the Canon 1Ds Mk II. I took the plunge, and am glad I did. The problems are greatly over billed. Mine has been flawless. The magenta thing is easily fixed with a filter, and whats the big deal many use a UV filter anyway. Have not seen any cyan shift at the edges here, although I do not have anything wider than a 35. With the latest firmware and a filter it should be no problem. Personnaly I'd buy another in a minute, if the wife would not shoot me first.
pessoa00
Member
If strong depreciation of dolar vs euro continues (its already above 1,35 while one year ago it was around 1,25) its possible US prices of the M8 (and all other leica products) will rise in the short term.
Even considering sales tax, the M8 in NYC is still less 400€ than in Portugal.
Even considering sales tax, the M8 in NYC is still less 400€ than in Portugal.
outfitter
Well-known
There is a disconnect between the Leica mechanical build quality - for which one pays a huge premium - and the fact that it is a digital camera - which by the nature of things will be technically eclipsed within a very few years. To a pro a 2-5 year useful life maybe OK for a rugged body (particularly if he already uses the lenses) but for an amateur?
Joe Mondello
Resu Deretsiger
How many $3-5K computers and laptops have you sold for a few hundred $$ or simply discarded at the end of their useful life of less than a half decade?
The M8 *may* hold its value better than this, but my advice is if you need it now, get it now. If you wait for a year, you will miss out on a year with this wonderful camera. What's a year of shooting worth to you?
The M8 *may* hold its value better than this, but my advice is if you need it now, get it now. If you wait for a year, you will miss out on a year with this wonderful camera. What's a year of shooting worth to you?
pfogle
Well-known
I don't know about this idea that digital will necessarily become obsolete so soon - I mean, pixel counts have plateau-ed, with 6 MP being as much as one needs from a p&s, and 10-15 MP being enough for anything less than top end commercial use, where medium format is traditional.
I guess the processors will get a bit faster, and so on, but this obsessive need to trade up is driven more by the makers than the consumers, IMO.
I've had my R-D1 for two years now, and I still don't feel I've exhausted its potential. I'll move up to Leica when I need to, but for the moment, I just keep reminding myself that, when in doubt, to do nothing costs nothing
ps - don't get me wrong - I'm grateful for all those who went first and helped sort out the steep learning curve that the M8 has been - it's been a roller-coaster, and kudos to those who plunged in and got the issues sorted.
I guess the processors will get a bit faster, and so on, but this obsessive need to trade up is driven more by the makers than the consumers, IMO.
I've had my R-D1 for two years now, and I still don't feel I've exhausted its potential. I'll move up to Leica when I need to, but for the moment, I just keep reminding myself that, when in doubt, to do nothing costs nothing
ps - don't get me wrong - I'm grateful for all those who went first and helped sort out the steep learning curve that the M8 has been - it's been a roller-coaster, and kudos to those who plunged in and got the issues sorted.
bluepenguin
Established
When Epson stop making R-D1s.... the price will go up again.
Why?
Because there is just no alternative solution besides high priced M8 for RF Digital league.
The price of M8 would fall and we all see that people will not bid over $4100 on Ebay for M8.
Why?
Because there is just no alternative solution besides high priced M8 for RF Digital league.
The price of M8 would fall and we all see that people will not bid over $4100 on Ebay for M8.
Olsen
Well-known
David,
Americans 'wanting' a M8 now should buy the sooner the better. With the latest plunge of the US$ all € related imports, from Mercedes'es to Leicas, will soon increase in price.
Tom
Americans 'wanting' a M8 now should buy the sooner the better. With the latest plunge of the US$ all € related imports, from Mercedes'es to Leicas, will soon increase in price.
Tom