spersky
-
Here is an interesting link pertaining to the extremly high failure rate of the Leica M8. The reason is not yet know, but if adds another problem to teh already dismal release of this camera.
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/14145-uh-oh-me-too.html
Some attribute the problems to static discharge just not sure. There is a very funny reference that Leica might ship 2 pairs of rubber gloves to current Lecia owners after registration and size obtained.
Good luck
Steve
http://www.leica-camera-user.com/digital-forum/14145-uh-oh-me-too.html
Some attribute the problems to static discharge just not sure. There is a very funny reference that Leica might ship 2 pairs of rubber gloves to current Lecia owners after registration and size obtained.
Good luck
Steve
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Inexcuseable. Grounding or other protection for static is not an exotic thing, is it?
Mechanical and minimal electronics for me, thank you very much.
Mechanical and minimal electronics for me, thank you very much.
patrickho777
beyond image
Oh my goodness. The more bad news I see each month, the less motivated I am to get a M8.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
A few isolated reports and the predictable dog pile from others who do not own the camera seems an epidemic. It reminds me of the Bird Flu scare in Hong Kong- this shut down the city for nearly a year and half and in the same time more people drown in their chicken soup in Manhattan then were infected with the flu in Hong Kong (a joke but not far off.)
I had my M8 in Vegas a one week ago and I have never seen such static in the air- I shocked the camera several times and it works fine. If the camera has an issue I doubt seriously that it’s static related but hey, a lie or a rumor repeated a thousand times (or a couple dozen times on the net) suddenly becomes gospel.
I had my M8 in Vegas a one week ago and I have never seen such static in the air- I shocked the camera several times and it works fine. If the camera has an issue I doubt seriously that it’s static related but hey, a lie or a rumor repeated a thousand times (or a couple dozen times on the net) suddenly becomes gospel.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Ted: True enough, but those reports seem more than "a few isolated". But whatever, if static is an issue (and there does seem to be enough anecdotal evidence), then it also makes sense that assembly line/production/QA issues would explain the variability of experience. JMO, but for $5K for a body ... I'm still a bit gobsmacked. I am also impressed with the quality of M8 images when everything is right, so there you go.
tmessenger
Established
I wonder how many hundreds of them have failed, the sky is falling the sky is falling.
Sailor Ted said:
spersky
-
I would hardly say isolated. There seemed to be many people in that post with problems. Look at the sample size which is small vs the amount of problems. Why are you so defensive. Maybe it is just a miracle you have not had a problem with the M8. Does that not mean that other people should not hear about potential problems and maybe save themselves from a 5000 dollar nightmare.
Sure cut Leica some slack at first, but now it seems that Leica might have been over thier head on this bold release of the M8. They will have have to deal with the problems.
Regards
Sure cut Leica some slack at first, but now it seems that Leica might have been over thier head on this bold release of the M8. They will have have to deal with the problems.
Regards
Sailor Ted
Well-known
A miracle? Perhaps and perhaps if I have the time I’ll sift through that post and count the actual Leica M8 owners from the throng who do not own the camera that are chiming in as they always do, there and here. Sorry if this sounds defensive but the actual number of people who have issues vs. the ratio of people who profess to be M8 experts and have never set eyes on the camera never mind touched one are probably 30 to 1.
Defensive? No. Pragmatic? Yes.
Defensive? No. Pragmatic? Yes.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Are we working ourselves into yet another internet frenzy? - sorry count me out. I'm off taking photographs with my apparently fatally flawed M8...
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Trius said:
Trius,
At this point it's just a hand full of reports- and way too soon to be bandying about words like "inexcusable" let alone if there is an issue attributable it to static electricity (I shocked my camera a dozen times at least last week in Vegas and it's working perfectly). There are just not enough facts on the table yet and we cannot determine whether or not this is just a statistical norm given the number of camera bodies sold or a malfunction. If there is an issue it will show it's self, however at this point it seems premature to call.
And you are correct the images this camera can produce are impressive : )
Ted
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Ted ... It's interesting ... but all this is really bizarre. Trying to estimate the failure rate of any consumer device based on the reports of those who actually choose to be vocal about it, sure is fraught with danger. The only people who would be aware of the failure rate as a percentage of cameras actually sold would be Leica ... and it's not like they are some mega manufacturer with two hundred thousand units sold ... and sufficient feedback from dealers, customers etc to be able to analyze their situation and predict their vulnerability. ie ... the cameras future and their ongoing success in the digital market!
When they have this figure and who knows whether it's 2% or 7% at this stage, I'm sure they will make some descisions over persisting with the problems or aiming for a much improved successor. They will have to sell a lot more cameras yet to able to see the picture clearly ... (pardon the pun).
What do you think Ted ... not that we often have to ask!
When they have this figure and who knows whether it's 2% or 7% at this stage, I'm sure they will make some descisions over persisting with the problems or aiming for a much improved successor. They will have to sell a lot more cameras yet to able to see the picture clearly ... (pardon the pun).
What do you think Ted ... not that we often have to ask!
Sailor Ted
Well-known
I think it's premature at this time. I know my camera is working fine however anything is possible. I took a look at the original link and as I suspected there were only a few M8 users reporting. That said many people were chiming making the "problem" look far worse then the actual numbers should suggest.
Back to you- what do you think, is there a tendency by those who do not actually own this camera to blow any real or imagined issues out of proportion? : )
Also if it’s too early to reliably get an idea of the cameras effected (assuming this is not just a coincidence) then how can we make a condemning call (so early on?) Like I said the tendency to swing irrationally to the negative overpowers any tendency to assume the best- very few call the nay Sayers and those that do are somewhat stigmatized.
Back to you- what do you think, is there a tendency by those who do not actually own this camera to blow any real or imagined issues out of proportion? : )
Also if it’s too early to reliably get an idea of the cameras effected (assuming this is not just a coincidence) then how can we make a condemning call (so early on?) Like I said the tendency to swing irrationally to the negative overpowers any tendency to assume the best- very few call the nay Sayers and those that do are somewhat stigmatized.
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Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I think that surmising over the future of this camera is pointless at the moment ... mind you it sure keeps this forum busy! I'm not passionate about the camera because I don't own one so consequently, in spite of my awe of Leica, I view what may happen from a safe point ... dispassionately!
As a manufacturer though they will at some stage further down the track, have collated enough information to be able to say ... "It's fine but we have had some unfortunate teething problems and after all the warranty/failure rate was only 1.4%."
or ... "Oh s**t ... 11.6% ... this is the new Edsel, get me that shredder! and a plane ticket to South America!"
As a manufacturer though they will at some stage further down the track, have collated enough information to be able to say ... "It's fine but we have had some unfortunate teething problems and after all the warranty/failure rate was only 1.4%."
or ... "Oh s**t ... 11.6% ... this is the new Edsel, get me that shredder! and a plane ticket to South America!"
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Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Ted, you are right about the statistical part, and I have taken "your" position on the ZI. I presume more ZIs have been sold than M8s, but who knows.
My use of the word inexcusable was perhaps a bit much, but whether static or not, those kinds of problems, whether they affect you (Ted) or not, are more than unsettling. In a sense, it's not fair to focus on M8 problems because it's a $5K camera, but somehow I expect more of a Lexus than a Kia...
Keep shooting it man, and I hope it never gives you a single problem.
My use of the word inexcusable was perhaps a bit much, but whether static or not, those kinds of problems, whether they affect you (Ted) or not, are more than unsettling. In a sense, it's not fair to focus on M8 problems because it's a $5K camera, but somehow I expect more of a Lexus than a Kia...
Keep shooting it man, and I hope it never gives you a single problem.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
**sigh** I have never owned a machine that did not have issues- ever. That said some are already adding another black mark to this camera? And after only a few reports?! From what I can tell this camera is amazing and works much better then my other DRF that can hardly be called on to focus one day to the next (or new from the factory). Again this is far to premature- really now.
I’m not saying this is the case, nor do I think it is the point, but I would like to make this observation- I'll bet I could make up a fictitious user name here or elsewhere, create a wild story about the M8, and all the usual suspects would chime in, and after a few days it would be the next horrible black mark- see my point? For the record I do believe everyone of the handful of people who reported issues to be genuine but I also believe every other digi-camera sold has a percentage of failures and sooner rather then later, but no one is making sweeping generalizations about that.
Oh well.
I’m not saying this is the case, nor do I think it is the point, but I would like to make this observation- I'll bet I could make up a fictitious user name here or elsewhere, create a wild story about the M8, and all the usual suspects would chime in, and after a few days it would be the next horrible black mark- see my point? For the record I do believe everyone of the handful of people who reported issues to be genuine but I also believe every other digi-camera sold has a percentage of failures and sooner rather then later, but no one is making sweeping generalizations about that.
Oh well.
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Sailor Ted
Well-known
Keith novak said:get me that shredder! and a plane ticket to South America!"
Keith is that still a favorite sanctuary for fleeing Germans?
Also since we have a forum that stigmatizes the M8 "reported problems" or some such is this thread not incorrectly posted?
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jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
I just went and read that entire thread, and there seem to be several consistent, well-documented reports (one by Sean Reid) of a new type of M8 failure in which the rear LCD and menus keep working but the top LCD goes dead and the camera can't be powered off.
However, static-charge effects are just one area of speculation; loose battery contacts are another. The reason "static charge" seems to figure so prominently in the thread was that someone suggested it as a possible cause, and then other people started discussing the properties of static charges and their possible effects on cameras in general. (I call this discussion-forum phenomenon the "barking dog effect" -- as when one dog in the neighborhood barks at a squirrel, or the mailman, or whatever, and immediately every other dog in the neighborhood starts barking too. The first dog is barking at something, and the other dogs are all barking at the first dog).
It's probably best not to read too much into these reports, but on the other hand it's also probably worth keeping in mind that, as Reid posted in that thread, "Frankly, it takes a bit of patience and perspective to be an M8 owner right now."
My own take: Man, I'll bet Epson is wishing they had about 5,000 R-D 1 refurbs in the warehouse...
However, static-charge effects are just one area of speculation; loose battery contacts are another. The reason "static charge" seems to figure so prominently in the thread was that someone suggested it as a possible cause, and then other people started discussing the properties of static charges and their possible effects on cameras in general. (I call this discussion-forum phenomenon the "barking dog effect" -- as when one dog in the neighborhood barks at a squirrel, or the mailman, or whatever, and immediately every other dog in the neighborhood starts barking too. The first dog is barking at something, and the other dogs are all barking at the first dog).
It's probably best not to read too much into these reports, but on the other hand it's also probably worth keeping in mind that, as Reid posted in that thread, "Frankly, it takes a bit of patience and perspective to be an M8 owner right now."
My own take: Man, I'll bet Epson is wishing they had about 5,000 R-D 1 refurbs in the warehouse...
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Sailor Ted said:Keith is that still a favorite sanctuary for fleeing Germans?
They uncover the odd one over here in Oz every now and then ... so if the big Leica Cheese does do a runner I hope he comes here and brings me a couple of discount M8's ... he can hide at my place! :angel:
Sailor Ted
Well-known
jlw said:
I agree however for different reasons then you might expect. As to the R-D1, I'm working on my second body and it looks as if I need to send it back for a third- and not a refurb either; brand new R-D1s's from Robert White. At this point and aside from the IR shift, the M8's issues are speculative, the R-D1's are fact.
PS. How many individual users did you count on that thread
?jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Sailor Ted said:
I'd say the R-D 1's issues are well-documented and generally fixable; the M8's issues are sporadic and harder to trace, which probably indicates a sounder basic design but likely isn't much comfort for the person who just discovered that his camera won't fire and won't shut off and is greeted with skepticism as to the problem even being real (just as the IR, green-blob, streaking, and rainbow problems were until the evidence became overwhelming.)
Maybe what this is teaching is that DRFs in general are like old Jaguars: you need to own at least two, so you've got one to use while the other one is off being fixed!