Sailor Ted
Well-known
Well jlw you can continue to make these assertions regarding the M8's reliability as well as "all those effected" however I do not believe Gen 2 versions have the sporadic problems you assert aside from what should be expected.
Perhaps I will spoof an M8 issue and fess up a day or two later if only to illustrate how quick some are to throw stones and to follow in.
Perhaps I will spoof an M8 issue and fess up a day or two later if only to illustrate how quick some are to throw stones and to follow in.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Sailor Ted said:
Yeah, that's me, I'm the guy who just two or three posts above this one made the shocking assertion, "It's probably best not to read too much into these reports." Gosh, what a shamelessly vicious M8-basher I am!
Sailor Ted
Well-known
jlw I did not mean to piss you off- sorry. However my points still stand- I'm also curious how many M8 users did you count?
Also have you read William Shakepeare's Julius Ceser "Et tu, Brutus"?
That’s how I basically see people who on the one hand say "don't read too much into it" then on the other hand continue to spread a rumor. At this point it's just a few reports nothing more, nothing less. If said conjecture were prefaced as being based on a few reports I would not take issue.
Also have you read William Shakepeare's Julius Ceser "Et tu, Brutus"?
That’s how I basically see people who on the one hand say "don't read too much into it" then on the other hand continue to spread a rumor. At this point it's just a few reports nothing more, nothing less. If said conjecture were prefaced as being based on a few reports I would not take issue.
Last edited:
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
I was trying to be wry, not P.O'ed. My humor calibration may be a bit off at this time of the morning.
Just for the record, I went back to the Leica user forum and counted posts in the thread. As of a few minutes ago there were 69 posts; five were from M8 users reporting the same set of symptoms, one was a secondhand pointer to another thread describing another owner's similar problem, and four were descriptions by other M8 owners of slightly different electrically-related problems.
The rest were discussions and speculations about the possible causes of the reported problems, plus the usual wanderings that occur in a discussion forum.
The fact that five M8 users are reporting the same previously-undocumented set of symptoms is noteworthy, but I think a cautious observer at this stage would regard it as "statistically interesting" but no more. For example, all these users might have gotten batteries from the same bad batch, or might all live in an area that's having extreme weather, or they could all have gone to the same Leica user group meeting and come home cross-eyed drunk, or whatever.
When you read this type of thing, there's always the temptation to assume that the reporting group is a representative sample of the total population. But that's all it is -- an assumption.
We might be tempted to guess that the Leica forum includes, say, 50 M8 owners, so that if five of them -- 10 percent -- are reporting identical symptoms, the presumably 10 percent of the entire worldwide population of M8s, whatever that figure might be, is at risk for the same symptoms. But that's an unwarranted assumption: five occurrences is too small a number from which to generalize. It would be like saying that since 10 people live in my apartment building, and one of them is a concert violinist, then there must be thirty million concert violinists in the United States.
To put it another way, back when I was a newspaper reporter this kind of clustering might have inspired me to make a few more phone calls to see if there might be something interesting going on, but I wouldn't have asked the editor to hold the front page for it. Or as my statistics professor used to say, "Correlation isn't the same as cause and effect."
If I were an M8 owner I'd file it away in the back of my mind so that if my camera started behaving similarly I'd be aware that it was a "previously reported issue," but probably no more than that.
Just for the record, I went back to the Leica user forum and counted posts in the thread. As of a few minutes ago there were 69 posts; five were from M8 users reporting the same set of symptoms, one was a secondhand pointer to another thread describing another owner's similar problem, and four were descriptions by other M8 owners of slightly different electrically-related problems.
The rest were discussions and speculations about the possible causes of the reported problems, plus the usual wanderings that occur in a discussion forum.
The fact that five M8 users are reporting the same previously-undocumented set of symptoms is noteworthy, but I think a cautious observer at this stage would regard it as "statistically interesting" but no more. For example, all these users might have gotten batteries from the same bad batch, or might all live in an area that's having extreme weather, or they could all have gone to the same Leica user group meeting and come home cross-eyed drunk, or whatever.
When you read this type of thing, there's always the temptation to assume that the reporting group is a representative sample of the total population. But that's all it is -- an assumption.
We might be tempted to guess that the Leica forum includes, say, 50 M8 owners, so that if five of them -- 10 percent -- are reporting identical symptoms, the presumably 10 percent of the entire worldwide population of M8s, whatever that figure might be, is at risk for the same symptoms. But that's an unwarranted assumption: five occurrences is too small a number from which to generalize. It would be like saying that since 10 people live in my apartment building, and one of them is a concert violinist, then there must be thirty million concert violinists in the United States.
To put it another way, back when I was a newspaper reporter this kind of clustering might have inspired me to make a few more phone calls to see if there might be something interesting going on, but I wouldn't have asked the editor to hold the front page for it. Or as my statistics professor used to say, "Correlation isn't the same as cause and effect."
If I were an M8 owner I'd file it away in the back of my mind so that if my camera started behaving similarly I'd be aware that it was a "previously reported issue," but probably no more than that.
Last edited:
R
RML
Guest
As much as I would like to have an M8, the number of (supposed) issues that have come to light since its release are staggering. The R-D1's issues are known and mostly fixable. The M8's issues are... well... of a different order, some haven't been addressed yet, and some aren't even acknowledged (yet).
Anyone who has good experience with the M8 or the R-D1 (like I have) will say all those others are whiners (yes, all of you who constantly are nitpicking over their so-called faulty R-D1 all are whiners. Get a life and shoot
). Nevertheless, a prospective buyer, for whom the $5K might not be small change, will definitely think twice or more before parting with his money after reading all those (supposed) problems. No matter how the statistics run, people base a purchase on quite different motifs. One is emotion and not wanting to end up with a very expensive lemon. The M8 suffers from being perceived as just one such expensive lemon. As long as these (supposed) issues aren't addresses (but instead dismissed by people not able to place oneself in other people's buying shoes), the M8 will never be the success it could be.
Anyone who has good experience with the M8 or the R-D1 (like I have) will say all those others are whiners (yes, all of you who constantly are nitpicking over their so-called faulty R-D1 all are whiners. Get a life and shoot
). Nevertheless, a prospective buyer, for whom the $5K might not be small change, will definitely think twice or more before parting with his money after reading all those (supposed) problems. No matter how the statistics run, people base a purchase on quite different motifs. One is emotion and not wanting to end up with a very expensive lemon. The M8 suffers from being perceived as just one such expensive lemon. As long as these (supposed) issues aren't addresses (but instead dismissed by people not able to place oneself in other people's buying shoes), the M8 will never be the success it could be.Jager
Established
RML said:As much as I would like to have an M8, the number of (supposed) issues that have come to light since its release are staggering. The R-D1's issues are known and mostly fixable. The M8's issues are... well... of a different order, some haven't been addressed yet, and some aren't even acknowledged (yet).
Anyone who has good experience with the M8 or the R-D1 (like I have) will say all those others are whiners (yes, all of you who constantly are nitpicking over their so-called faulty R-D1 all are whiners. Get a life and shoot
As JLW notes in his post above, it's wise to keep some perspective regarding the perception of problems, vice the reality of their occurence. An interestng byproduct of internet communications (beyond the ease and swiftness with which people oftentimes get pissed at each other) is the sharp amplification of the perception of problems. This affects pretty much any product - check out an internet forum for whatever your favorite thing is and you'll almost certainly find it. It's natural for us to then want to draw conclusions from what seems surely to be a trend, but from a statistical basis that's almost always wrong. Usually grossly so.
Me thinks there's probably a good subject for a dissertation there...
The other thing... the M8 is a new, first-generation, fairly complex technical product. I'd suggest that anyone who didn't expect that there would be _some_ level of teething problems probably had undue expectations. I'm typing this on a second-generation MacBook Pro. The first-generation MBP had a whole range of minor-design and manufacturing-QC issues. And yet few would suggest that Apple doesn't know how to design and build computers. The Nikon D200 is an exceptional camera. Yet, when it was introduced a little over a year ago it promptly became evident that some number of the first-gen models exhibited worrisome banding issues. Nikon did a partial recall of those early models and quickly had to introduce a manufacturing change.
The reality is that as complexity scales it becomes more and more difficult to manage. I'm actually quite happy with Leica's response to the M8 issues. Especially for being the small, almost-boutique, company that it is, they have demonstrated a remarkable willingness to respond very quickly to problems. Enough so that I've put my money where my mouth is - ponying up the 5K for a new M8. Mine is a 2nd-gen (albeit, based upon its serial number, a refurbed 1st-gen unit) model and I went into that purchase knowing full well that being an early adopter means I'm at a higher level of risk of encountering problems than those who wait 12 or 24 months. What I get in return for that risk... is a remarkable photographic experience and sterling image quality - today.
Jeff
Sailor Ted
Well-known
To say this camera is or should be perceived as "an expensive lemon" is reckless and ignores the facts:
1. Only a handful of reports- 5 (this could change however at this point it’s just too soon to call).
2. The M8 makes uncommon film like prints- far superior in many ways to Nikon and Canon.
3. The first Gen issues (real) were dealt with in a timely and professional manner by Leica.
4. The only other DRF option, the R-D1s, has serious issues with its ability to focus, and the company behind it, Epson, does not stand behind this camera.
If you want to shoot with a DRF you have two choices- Leica or Epson. If you wait you'll undoubtedly get a better camera as is the case with all products from proactive companies, they only improve the breed- that said the breed is world class today.
Lastly I am not implying that people who have legitimate issues are anything other then genuine and there problems real. What I am saying is that if someone with an M8 gets a cough 30 other photogs on the net dog pile in and suddenly the cough transforms to deathbeds pneumonia.
1. Only a handful of reports- 5 (this could change however at this point it’s just too soon to call).
2. The M8 makes uncommon film like prints- far superior in many ways to Nikon and Canon.
3. The first Gen issues (real) were dealt with in a timely and professional manner by Leica.
4. The only other DRF option, the R-D1s, has serious issues with its ability to focus, and the company behind it, Epson, does not stand behind this camera.
If you want to shoot with a DRF you have two choices- Leica or Epson. If you wait you'll undoubtedly get a better camera as is the case with all products from proactive companies, they only improve the breed- that said the breed is world class today.
Lastly I am not implying that people who have legitimate issues are anything other then genuine and there problems real. What I am saying is that if someone with an M8 gets a cough 30 other photogs on the net dog pile in and suddenly the cough transforms to deathbeds pneumonia.
Last edited:
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I'm with ya, Jaap.jaapv said:
John Camp
Well-known
One of the problems with this kind of discussion is that the M8's issues are simply piled up -- 'Oh, no, here's another' -- as if nothing else were happening. But something else is happening -- the problems are being fixed. As is not the case with some other major brands, where problems were simply denied or ignored, Leica is actually taking care of its customers.
There were three major issues with the first batch of cameras -- IR, banding, and the green-blob. To that was added the rainbow interference problem, and now the electrical malfunction, whatever the cause. Four of the five of these have been solved.
That leaves the new issue, which might mean a grounding change, or a fix to the battery contacts. Doesn't sound earth-shaking, whichever it is. I haven't seen it, and I've been working in cold weather in a quite dry, static-filled environment Minnesota, with no problems (although that doesn't mean that I won't have one, sooner or later.)
An additional point here: with the exception of the IR situation, none of these problems are common or much affect daily shooting. To get the banding or green blob, you had to shoot at high ISOs with a vastly over-exposed light source in the frame. Some people do like to shoot bright lights at night, and the banding shouldn't have happened, but most of the time, you actually had to force the problem. Same with the rainbow interference; it only happens under peculiar circumstances. For the vast majority of shooting, the problems never show up.
JC
There were three major issues with the first batch of cameras -- IR, banding, and the green-blob. To that was added the rainbow interference problem, and now the electrical malfunction, whatever the cause. Four of the five of these have been solved.
That leaves the new issue, which might mean a grounding change, or a fix to the battery contacts. Doesn't sound earth-shaking, whichever it is. I haven't seen it, and I've been working in cold weather in a quite dry, static-filled environment Minnesota, with no problems (although that doesn't mean that I won't have one, sooner or later.)
An additional point here: with the exception of the IR situation, none of these problems are common or much affect daily shooting. To get the banding or green blob, you had to shoot at high ISOs with a vastly over-exposed light source in the frame. Some people do like to shoot bright lights at night, and the banding shouldn't have happened, but most of the time, you actually had to force the problem. Same with the rainbow interference; it only happens under peculiar circumstances. For the vast majority of shooting, the problems never show up.
JC
barjohn
Established
Like some others here, I have an R-D1 and have been giving serious consideration to an M8. Some of these threads are a little disturbing but as a former marketing exec I am simply amazed at the lack of Internet marketing savy companies like Leica and Epson display. In the world of marketing (it also applies to many other areas of life) perception is reality. Were I Leica, I would first have an engineer monitoring these forums and second showing genuine responsiveness and caring. If you want to see an example of what I mean go to the following thread: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=threadt&frm_id=69 it is a forum for watch enthusiasts that collect or purchase high end watches. The thread is the Hublot thread. You will see numerous posts by JCBIVER the president of Hublot responding to customer perceived or real problems getting them expedited service and giving them special extended warranties. That level of service from a company that sells around 10K units per year (probably less than Leica). It certainly paints the picture of a company that cares about its customers and that is prepared to quickly resolve customer problems be they real or otherwise. Much of the thread is currently devoted to their new Big Bang watch that is a radical departure for the Swiss watch making industry in its use of exotic materials and new technology like ceramics, carbon fiber combined with Staineless steel, 18k gold, Platinum and other newer metals. This thread is an eaxmple of customer service: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=2427640&rid=0
I would hope that someone from Leica reads these threads and gets the idea. I believe that Leica makes great lenses and that their former cameras are incredible but I am concerned about their transition to the world of digital electronics, the fact that they didn't just replace the cameras with problems in the intial batch, the time it is taking to create firmware release 1.10 and now the potential for another issue.
As a software engineer and head of R&D for a Navy lab, I have to say that I would put battery contacts at the bottom of likely causes, especially since some functionality with the LCD and menu system is operating (these require power). More liekly would be the ROM (Read Only Memory) that contains the software that runs the camera and processes the images being corrupted. Static electricity can damage a ROM or it may be a firmware bug that some combination of events causes to get executed and the camera gets hung in some state it cannot clear. Since a reflash of the ROM (when users were able to do this did not cure the problem) it may be failure of a component. It will be interesting to find out what it is. I would think that with Sean experiencing the problem they would have had him overnight the camera to their engineers to analyze and trouble shoot the issue. I hope that is the case.
John
I would hope that someone from Leica reads these threads and gets the idea. I believe that Leica makes great lenses and that their former cameras are incredible but I am concerned about their transition to the world of digital electronics, the fact that they didn't just replace the cameras with problems in the intial batch, the time it is taking to create firmware release 1.10 and now the potential for another issue.
As a software engineer and head of R&D for a Navy lab, I have to say that I would put battery contacts at the bottom of likely causes, especially since some functionality with the LCD and menu system is operating (these require power). More liekly would be the ROM (Read Only Memory) that contains the software that runs the camera and processes the images being corrupted. Static electricity can damage a ROM or it may be a firmware bug that some combination of events causes to get executed and the camera gets hung in some state it cannot clear. Since a reflash of the ROM (when users were able to do this did not cure the problem) it may be failure of a component. It will be interesting to find out what it is. I would think that with Sean experiencing the problem they would have had him overnight the camera to their engineers to analyze and trouble shoot the issue. I hope that is the case.
John
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Sailor Ted said:
So does an M2/3/4/4-x/5/6/7 .... ya just don't have the LCD thingy.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
If some photgraphic deity existed that gave me a dollar for every professional digital camera from any company, be it Leica, Canon or whoever, that broke down I could buy at least three M8's a year with a full range of the most expensive lenses. Digital camera's are complicated machines that can and will fail from time to time -period. Relatively simple contraptions like Leica's M7's and Mp's break down sometimes, even straight out of the box. There is no professional photographer that will leave the house without at least two bodies, no serious amateur will contemplate undertaking an extended trip with just one camera. So what are we talking about???
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Trius said:So does an M2/3/4/4-x/5/6/7 .... ya just don't have the LCD thingy.
Yea or that auto develop, auto film for every light source, never need to scan and scan and scan thingy : )
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
I knew you were going to throw that in my face! Now how do you project those files on a cheap screen with a pretty cheap projector again?
Sailor Ted
Well-known
Trius I don't really care to but if I want to I can do so in my home theater (but again I do not). I know you're not an M8 user but what you're basically observing is a difference between one medium vs. another; your observation is not inherent to the M8 so much as film vs. digital. If someone were to do this in a film forum regarding digital vs. film they'd be labeled a troll which of course you are not.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
I would not abhor an M8 w/ Hex 28 and DR 50 that dropped in my lap. Yeah, you're right ... it's a difference between media.
But in the mornings before coffee I definitely look like a troll.
jlw
Rangefinder camera pedant
Jager said:
There's actually a whole field there already, sometimes called "psychoeconomics." You can read a good introduction in some of the later chapters of Peter Bernstein's lively and entertaining book Against the Gods - The Remarkable Story of Risk.
Among other things, he describes how two Israeli psychologists did a series of experiments to develop what they call Prospect Theory, a model of how predictable biases in perception lead people to evaluate probabilities incorrectly.
One that's particularly applicable in Internet fora is that people consistently tend to overestimate the probability of rare but dramatic events, while underestimating the probability of common but mundane events.
An example described in Bernstein's book was based on a survey of medical students asked to estimate what proportion of deaths were likely to be from natural vs. non-natural causes. Not only did the students overestimate the likelihood of non-natural deaths, but the more detailed the categories they were given (not just natural vs. non-natural, for example, but non-natural via car accidents, household accidents, violent crime, etc.) the more more they over-estimated the proportion of non-natural deaths.
A speculative photography-related example of this: People reading four or five highly-detailed, dramatic reports of a specific type of defect in the new Hypo-Digithetica D77 camera might estimate that a high percentage of D77s were going to fail because of this defect. Meanwhile, a long-term study of actual D77 failures might conclude that it was many times more likely for the camera to fail as a result of being dropped, or smashed, or licked by aardvarks, or whatever. But because these types of incidents were not reported in dramatic detail, people would be likely to underestimate their risks, while overestimating the risks of the dramatic failures that actually were less frequent.
ywenz
Veteran
Sure is fun being an M8 owner! good luck sorting out all the issues with it...
How many M8s are actually out there? how many absurd failures are we seeing?
How many M8s are actually out there? how many absurd failures are we seeing?
Last edited:
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
About five thousand camera's and six of these failures reported......Sorry, you asked, but it does put this thread into perspective.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
ywenz said:
ywnez,
You're not usually the flamebate type- a little buyers remorse with that 5D?
Ted
PS. I'm putting mine up for sale- the pictures are God awful and the user interface is much like my M6 which is to say it sucks. Yes sir I'm selling it and my considerable lens stash for something wonderful, mass-produced, and with every electronic wiz bang they can think of because we all know that's the path to true photography
Last edited: