Photo-Street
Newbie
Hello!
My only activity in this forum was limited to post images in the X100-Thread - and the X100 is my only Rangefinder so far. But no I'm longing for a real one - just tried the M9-P and the M-Monochrom and liked it very much! But, what shall I say, they are to expensive.
But there are other Rangefinders with other prices on the market.
I like to get good image-quality, I like to get a camera that don't get technical faults soon and I like to get a camera, I like to use for years. And maybe you can help me with this descision.
So here some thoughts about other Rangefinders:
M8:
It's expensive, but that's manageable for me (but it's the limit, so no M8.2). Iso-Performance is not that good, but I think it is ok. But there are so many M8s on the market which needed new shutters, needed to get their rangefinder justified and so on. Is the M8 so fragile?
Lenses would be: VC 35/1.2 II & VC 25/4 or VC 28/2.
Epson RD1:
It's expensive for it's age. There are only 6MP an I think this would annoy me. Crop is 1.5, it's not so much more than the M8, so I think it woud be ok. Is it fragile?
Lenses would bei: VC 35/1.2 II & VC 25/4 or Zeiss 25/2.8
Ikon ZM or Bessa R2a with Film-Scanner:
I really don't know, if this is an alternitiv for me. But hey, it's fullframe, the Bessa is comparatively cheap and the Zeiss got a nice Finder. On the other hand, I need buy films and need to process and scan the film. That's not always cheap and takes time. I cannot change the ISO without changing the film and so on. But maybe it's a bit more back to the roots and the picture. And there ist not that much electronic on the analog cameras. So aren't they that fragile?
Lenses would be: Zeiss 50/1.5 or VC 50/1.1 & VC 35/2.5 or VS 28/2
So, what do you think? Maybe you got some other thaoughts about it? Maybe you got some recommendations for me?
Thanks for your answears!
And by the way: Sorry for my bad english. I am not a native english speaker.
Greetings!
My only activity in this forum was limited to post images in the X100-Thread - and the X100 is my only Rangefinder so far. But no I'm longing for a real one - just tried the M9-P and the M-Monochrom and liked it very much! But, what shall I say, they are to expensive.
But there are other Rangefinders with other prices on the market.
I like to get good image-quality, I like to get a camera that don't get technical faults soon and I like to get a camera, I like to use for years. And maybe you can help me with this descision.
So here some thoughts about other Rangefinders:
M8:
It's expensive, but that's manageable for me (but it's the limit, so no M8.2). Iso-Performance is not that good, but I think it is ok. But there are so many M8s on the market which needed new shutters, needed to get their rangefinder justified and so on. Is the M8 so fragile?
Lenses would be: VC 35/1.2 II & VC 25/4 or VC 28/2.
Epson RD1:
It's expensive for it's age. There are only 6MP an I think this would annoy me. Crop is 1.5, it's not so much more than the M8, so I think it woud be ok. Is it fragile?
Lenses would bei: VC 35/1.2 II & VC 25/4 or Zeiss 25/2.8
Ikon ZM or Bessa R2a with Film-Scanner:
I really don't know, if this is an alternitiv for me. But hey, it's fullframe, the Bessa is comparatively cheap and the Zeiss got a nice Finder. On the other hand, I need buy films and need to process and scan the film. That's not always cheap and takes time. I cannot change the ISO without changing the film and so on. But maybe it's a bit more back to the roots and the picture. And there ist not that much electronic on the analog cameras. So aren't they that fragile?
Lenses would be: Zeiss 50/1.5 or VC 50/1.1 & VC 35/2.5 or VS 28/2
So, what do you think? Maybe you got some other thaoughts about it? Maybe you got some recommendations for me?
Thanks for your answears!
And by the way: Sorry for my bad english. I am not a native english speaker.
Greetings!
kshapero
South Florida Man
Your English is fine. Welcome aboard. Large spectrum of choices. Do you have a budget? There are plenty of digital versus film rants at RFF for you to read about. It seems you more into digital so if you can swing it, pickup an M8.
maddoc
... likes film again.
The X100 is a rangefinder camera ? Always learning something new. 
To give some thoughts to your questions ... What do you want to photograph ? What would be your budget ? Is film absolutely impossible for certain reasons ? (Time and costs, availability ?)
Since you own a capable digital camera already, what you expect from your future camera to be different, better, not necessary ?
For example, for the price of the mentioned M8 plus some CV lenses you could get a nice M2, M4-P, M4-2 plus (older) 35mm Summicron lens + flatbed scanner + film. Any older (old) digital RF camera out there might have some troubles in the future that are expensive to repair (if at all) so I would carefully think about that also.
Cheers,
Gabor
PS: Welcome to the forum !
To give some thoughts to your questions ... What do you want to photograph ? What would be your budget ? Is film absolutely impossible for certain reasons ? (Time and costs, availability ?)
Since you own a capable digital camera already, what you expect from your future camera to be different, better, not necessary ?
For example, for the price of the mentioned M8 plus some CV lenses you could get a nice M2, M4-P, M4-2 plus (older) 35mm Summicron lens + flatbed scanner + film. Any older (old) digital RF camera out there might have some troubles in the future that are expensive to repair (if at all) so I would carefully think about that also.
Cheers,
Gabor
PS: Welcome to the forum !
Leigh Youdale
Well-known
The really critical thing to decide first is - do you want to go digital or analogue?
After that you need to decide which focal length lenses you really want to use, because the viewfinders on offer in the various cameras you mention have limited coverage and you need to be sure that they will match the lenses you mostly want to use, with possibly an accessory viewfinder for a lens you use less frequently and which lies outside the range of the camera's viewfinder (such as a 24 or 25mm).
If analogue, for a first rangefinder that has all the features you need and is not too expensive I'd suggest the Bessa. I have an R4A but also had an R3A until I decided to try a Leica and bought an M6. Still using the Voigtlander lenses on the Leica though and image quality is quite satisfactory. The Leica is heavier and obviously better built but the "A" type Voigtlanders are perfectly adequate and strong enough to do everything the M6 can, except driving nails, and including both AE or manual control.
However, your choice of lenses might influence your decision too. The Bessa R2* has frames for 35/50/75/90. That's fine if the widest you want to use is 35mm but if you want to use a 28 or wider then you're going to need an accessory finder mounted on top of the camera. That's no big deal - I use them - but some people can't abide the extra dimensions.
The R4* has frames for 21/25/28/35/50. Great for wide angle but the frame size for the 50mm lens is very small and some people don't like that either.
The M6 has frames for 28/35/50/75/90/135.
I tend to use the R4A for 21/25/28 and the M6 for 28/35/50/90
The Zeiss has frames for 28/35/50/85. That's probably the most useful combination of all but the cameras are not that easy to find, hence a bit pricey, and there are few M-mount 85mm lenses available apart from the Zeiss lenses which tend to be expensive.
I can't really advise you on digital rangefinders. Don't own one and haven't used one as I am still firmly wedded to B&W film and do my own processing and scanning.
After that you need to decide which focal length lenses you really want to use, because the viewfinders on offer in the various cameras you mention have limited coverage and you need to be sure that they will match the lenses you mostly want to use, with possibly an accessory viewfinder for a lens you use less frequently and which lies outside the range of the camera's viewfinder (such as a 24 or 25mm).
If analogue, for a first rangefinder that has all the features you need and is not too expensive I'd suggest the Bessa. I have an R4A but also had an R3A until I decided to try a Leica and bought an M6. Still using the Voigtlander lenses on the Leica though and image quality is quite satisfactory. The Leica is heavier and obviously better built but the "A" type Voigtlanders are perfectly adequate and strong enough to do everything the M6 can, except driving nails, and including both AE or manual control.
However, your choice of lenses might influence your decision too. The Bessa R2* has frames for 35/50/75/90. That's fine if the widest you want to use is 35mm but if you want to use a 28 or wider then you're going to need an accessory finder mounted on top of the camera. That's no big deal - I use them - but some people can't abide the extra dimensions.
The R4* has frames for 21/25/28/35/50. Great for wide angle but the frame size for the 50mm lens is very small and some people don't like that either.
The M6 has frames for 28/35/50/75/90/135.
I tend to use the R4A for 21/25/28 and the M6 for 28/35/50/90
The Zeiss has frames for 28/35/50/85. That's probably the most useful combination of all but the cameras are not that easy to find, hence a bit pricey, and there are few M-mount 85mm lenses available apart from the Zeiss lenses which tend to be expensive.
I can't really advise you on digital rangefinders. Don't own one and haven't used one as I am still firmly wedded to B&W film and do my own processing and scanning.
Photo-Street
Newbie
Hello,
wow, your answears came fast, thanks for that!
Yes, yes, you're right...
So my budget: aroud 1500€ for the camera only or for a camera with a film-scanner.
I mostly like to photograph in the streets, in my daily life, on journeys and I like to take portraits.
I did this with the 5D for a longer time and now with the X100, too.
What do I expect from my future camera?
I want a camera with changeable lenses, I want a camera which is doing reliable what I want it to do (the X100 doesn't always, especially the Focus), I don't want a big and heavy DSLR with big lenses, I want a camera I like to shoot with, I want good image- and bulid-quality and I want a rangefinder. I like to see, what's going on around the framelines, I like the focussing-method an I like the look and feel.
And what's also importand: I want a camera that will "attend" me for a long time, that won't have some bugs every three month and so on. (Is the M8 the right choise for that?)
I think, a digital one would fit better, I'm more in a digital workflow and like it. But I'm not sure if film would really be a big barricade for me.
Best regards!
wow, your answears came fast, thanks for that!
The X100 is a rangefinder camera ? Always learning something new.
Yes, yes, you're right...
So my budget: aroud 1500€ for the camera only or for a camera with a film-scanner.
I mostly like to photograph in the streets, in my daily life, on journeys and I like to take portraits.
I did this with the 5D for a longer time and now with the X100, too.
What do I expect from my future camera?
I want a camera with changeable lenses, I want a camera which is doing reliable what I want it to do (the X100 doesn't always, especially the Focus), I don't want a big and heavy DSLR with big lenses, I want a camera I like to shoot with, I want good image- and bulid-quality and I want a rangefinder. I like to see, what's going on around the framelines, I like the focussing-method an I like the look and feel.
And what's also importand: I want a camera that will "attend" me for a long time, that won't have some bugs every three month and so on. (Is the M8 the right choise for that?)
I think, a digital one would fit better, I'm more in a digital workflow and like it. But I'm not sure if film would really be a big barricade for me.
Best regards!
Photo-Street
Newbie
Hello Leigh_Youdale,
thanks for your answear, too!
And thank you for the listing of the frames!
I like to use a big aparture 50mm lens (35 on the M8 or RD1) and a 35mm or 28mm one (28 or 25/24 on the M( or RD1). I think on film I would go for 50 and 35.
Cheers!
thanks for your answear, too!
And thank you for the listing of the frames!
I like to use a big aparture 50mm lens (35 on the M8 or RD1) and a 35mm or 28mm one (28 or 25/24 on the M( or RD1). I think on film I would go for 50 and 35.
Cheers!
BobYIL
Well-known
http://www.fotoversand-afa.de/digita...schwarzset.php
(The C-Sonnar itself is close to €1.000 these days.. €500 for the body!)
(The C-Sonnar itself is close to €1.000 these days.. €500 for the body!)
thegman
Veteran
No experience of digital range finders, but I'll give you my 2 cents on the film ones.
The Bessa cameras have really nice finders too, about as nice as the Ikon in my opinion. However, a used Ikon is not *that* much more than a used Bessa, and well worth it. Unless you want particular frame lines, I doubt you'd regret spending the extra on the Ikon, for me, they are every bit as nice as a Leica, the Bessas, not so much. Still great cameras though.
As for ISO, if you shoot Portra 400, you barely need to worry about it. I shot Portra 400 at a wedding, in the dim indoors and the blazing sun outside, it's fine. The latitude of this film is so good, you don't need to even think about it. However, shoot something like Velvia 50, and then yes, you're stuck with that ISO until you swap film.
The Ikon's 85mm frameline, I would not worry about it, there are cheap Canon Serenar 85mm lenses, and it's close enough to 90mm, you could just shoot a 90mm lens, you'd never notice.
If you shoot a lot, film is expensive, if you don't then it's not too bad really. If you get scans/prints from your lab, then you only need to scan the ones you want to print big.
The Bessa cameras have really nice finders too, about as nice as the Ikon in my opinion. However, a used Ikon is not *that* much more than a used Bessa, and well worth it. Unless you want particular frame lines, I doubt you'd regret spending the extra on the Ikon, for me, they are every bit as nice as a Leica, the Bessas, not so much. Still great cameras though.
As for ISO, if you shoot Portra 400, you barely need to worry about it. I shot Portra 400 at a wedding, in the dim indoors and the blazing sun outside, it's fine. The latitude of this film is so good, you don't need to even think about it. However, shoot something like Velvia 50, and then yes, you're stuck with that ISO until you swap film.
The Ikon's 85mm frameline, I would not worry about it, there are cheap Canon Serenar 85mm lenses, and it's close enough to 90mm, you could just shoot a 90mm lens, you'd never notice.
If you shoot a lot, film is expensive, if you don't then it's not too bad really. If you get scans/prints from your lab, then you only need to scan the ones you want to print big.
maddoc
... likes film again.
photo_street, after looking at galleries at flickr (some really good images !!) I guess that I wasn`t to wrong with suggesting a something in the line of the Leica M2 (M4-P, M4-2, M6, ZI, Bessa) with a 35mm Summicron lens.
If it "has" to be digital I can`t be of much help since except with the Epson R-D1s I don`t have any experience ...
If it "has" to be digital I can`t be of much help since except with the Epson R-D1s I don`t have any experience ...
---f
-
I recommend mastering your X100 first before putting any more money down on any new equipment. That X100 is very capable of producing excellent images. If I was starting out today it's the first thing I would look at. After that an M8.
mfogiel
Veteran
I would recommend something of really high quality for B&W film - if you don't try it you will never know if you like it. I do not think you risk a lot if you would like to sell it back later.
My recommendations:
Zeiss Ikon body
-
If you are primarily a portrait shooter, then C Sonnar 50/1.5 (make sure it is optimized for f 2.8) , if you like street and landscape, then Planar 50/2. Alternative old: Rigid or DR Summicron 50/2 (better Rigid than DR, as the latter could have problems with compatibility), alternative recent : Summilux 50/1.4 pre asph or Hexanon 50/2.
-
CV 28/1.9 - not the 28/2 - you will need the ltm/m adapter
-
A dedicated film scanner: probably the Nikon 5000 is best, Plustek should be sufficient.
Start with Ilford XP2 exposed at EI 200, if you like it, move on to Tri X developed at home.
Don't buy obsolete and warranty-less digital cameras for more than 500 USD .
My recommendations:
Zeiss Ikon body
-
If you are primarily a portrait shooter, then C Sonnar 50/1.5 (make sure it is optimized for f 2.8) , if you like street and landscape, then Planar 50/2. Alternative old: Rigid or DR Summicron 50/2 (better Rigid than DR, as the latter could have problems with compatibility), alternative recent : Summilux 50/1.4 pre asph or Hexanon 50/2.
-
CV 28/1.9 - not the 28/2 - you will need the ltm/m adapter
-
A dedicated film scanner: probably the Nikon 5000 is best, Plustek should be sufficient.
Start with Ilford XP2 exposed at EI 200, if you like it, move on to Tri X developed at home.
Don't buy obsolete and warranty-less digital cameras for more than 500 USD .
Austerby
Well-known
I agree with the gman and MFogiel on the choice of the Zeiss Ikon and giving film a go. As you have a perfectly good digital camera it would seem unnecessary to go for the M8 or RD-1, good cameras though they are. The Bessa's are very good but the Zeiss is better.
I find the CV28/2 to be an excellent lens (no experience of the older CV28/1.9) though for the Zeiss Ikon it would be good if you can get hold of once of the Zeiss 35mm lenses as a starting point.
You should also consider the Epson V500/v700 scanners - flatbeds but good enough (for me) for 35mm.
Definitely look into home developing of film - both black and white and C41 processing are remarkably straightforward and satisfying to do at home. You should budget about £50 for the necessary equipment to do so. The savings from doing this compared to the costs of sending the film off for processing will be worthwhile.
I find the CV28/2 to be an excellent lens (no experience of the older CV28/1.9) though for the Zeiss Ikon it would be good if you can get hold of once of the Zeiss 35mm lenses as a starting point.
You should also consider the Epson V500/v700 scanners - flatbeds but good enough (for me) for 35mm.
Definitely look into home developing of film - both black and white and C41 processing are remarkably straightforward and satisfying to do at home. You should budget about £50 for the necessary equipment to do so. The savings from doing this compared to the costs of sending the film off for processing will be worthwhile.
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
Regarding the time and cost of processing and scanning film, I would say if you love photography this shouldn't be a problem. It would still be much cheaper than playing golf for instance
I personally have my film processed by a lab, but I enjoy scanning it so much. Almost like when I used to spend hours in the dark room developing and printing. Digital made things too easy but less enjoyable IMHO.
My favorite RF is the Zeiss Ikon. You can't go wrong with any of the ZM lenses and they are very competitively priced compared to Leica.
I personally have my film processed by a lab, but I enjoy scanning it so much. Almost like when I used to spend hours in the dark room developing and printing. Digital made things too easy but less enjoyable IMHO.
My favorite RF is the Zeiss Ikon. You can't go wrong with any of the ZM lenses and they are very competitively priced compared to Leica.
boomguy57
Well-known
If you're enjoying shooting with the X100, then get yourself a film RF and a 35mm lens. I would cast another vote in favor of the Zeiss Ikon--I recently got one after trying the Minolta CL, M3, and M6TTL, and the ZI is my favorite to use.
A Zeiss Ikon and a CV 35/1.4 lens should be able to be had within your budget and you should still have enough left over for some film and a decent scanner (I use the V500 and it's certainly good enough for me).
A Zeiss Ikon and a CV 35/1.4 lens should be able to be had within your budget and you should still have enough left over for some film and a decent scanner (I use the V500 and it's certainly good enough for me).
gilpen123
Gil
An RD1/s/x with VC 40 1.4 Nokton or a VC 35 1.2 may be a nice combination. At it's age it still hold it's own vs the M8s. Low ISO capability is good up to 1600 and still acceptable at 3200. You can browse over the RD1 threads and see for yourself how good this camera is.
djonesii
Well-known
my journey ...
my journey ...
In 35mm I've had Bessa R, M6, Epson RD-1
In 645, Bronica,
Weird Hybrids Contax G and Fuji 645 AF
in 4X5 a converted polaroid, with a real range finder.
There is nothing like a film leica. It's simply an amazing machine, but a machine it is. I've had a few of the cheaper leica lenses, but in my budget, I keep coming back to the CV lenses.
The RD-1 is great, but as you say, it's old tech, and seriously, my OM-D blows it away for IQ ...
Film is fun, but is film, hard to develop (relative to lightroom!), and slow. It is however special.
I'm blessed with both a good job and family, so I get to play with a wide variety of toys .... just for me, the RF world is really when I want to play with photos, when I ( and I stress, the I ) want to capture an image, manual focus is just too much work ... yeah, I know, hyperfocal etc ... just practice .... Seriously, the RF method has not made me hold on to one camera. Yet, I do keep coming back.
The Fuji and the X-1 Pro offer much of the RF experience, but in autofocus. Clearly, not the whole thing, but what I prefer. I chose and micro 4/3rds, but the same general idea.
If you have the inclination, the RF method is well worth learning, I think I'm a better photographer for having spent the time to decide that it's not MY favorite way to shoot.
Dave
my journey ...
In 35mm I've had Bessa R, M6, Epson RD-1
In 645, Bronica,
Weird Hybrids Contax G and Fuji 645 AF
in 4X5 a converted polaroid, with a real range finder.
There is nothing like a film leica. It's simply an amazing machine, but a machine it is. I've had a few of the cheaper leica lenses, but in my budget, I keep coming back to the CV lenses.
The RD-1 is great, but as you say, it's old tech, and seriously, my OM-D blows it away for IQ ...
Film is fun, but is film, hard to develop (relative to lightroom!), and slow. It is however special.
I'm blessed with both a good job and family, so I get to play with a wide variety of toys .... just for me, the RF world is really when I want to play with photos, when I ( and I stress, the I ) want to capture an image, manual focus is just too much work ... yeah, I know, hyperfocal etc ... just practice .... Seriously, the RF method has not made me hold on to one camera. Yet, I do keep coming back.
The Fuji and the X-1 Pro offer much of the RF experience, but in autofocus. Clearly, not the whole thing, but what I prefer. I chose and micro 4/3rds, but the same general idea.
If you have the inclination, the RF method is well worth learning, I think I'm a better photographer for having spent the time to decide that it's not MY favorite way to shoot.
Dave
gilpen123
Gil
The RD1x came out in 2009 not that old maybe technology/sensor I can agree. The original RD1 in 2004. Very capable and can hold it's own vs the more modern DRFs.
paradoxbox
Well-known
The R-D1 is a perfectly capable camera. If budget is a real concern and you MUST have digital then the R-D1 is a better deal than the M8 for most people.
Especially if you don't already have lenses. The Epson's lower price will let you spend more money on a good lens.
If you really want to save money buy a cheap Bessa film rangefinder and a Voigtlander lens and a cheap Epson scanner. You could have a whole setup for under $600 - Camera, lens, scanner, film, chemicals and developing equipment.
Especially if you don't already have lenses. The Epson's lower price will let you spend more money on a good lens.
If you really want to save money buy a cheap Bessa film rangefinder and a Voigtlander lens and a cheap Epson scanner. You could have a whole setup for under $600 - Camera, lens, scanner, film, chemicals and developing equipment.
Darthfeeble
But you can call me Steve
IMHO, none of the options you list have better image quality than the X100 that you have already. The lack of lens versatility is the only drawback to the Fuji and as long as you have functioning feet that isn't insurmountable. I've had an M8 and two RD1, I didn't find the M8 to be as much better than the RD1 as the price would indicate. I chose to go all digital as I found film to be too inconvenient. Bottom line, I'd recommend the RD1 and some very good glass. S
Photo-Street
Newbie
Hello,
than you all very much for your numerous answears! There are many helpful things for me.
I'll try to answear you now:
Very nice offer! But unfortunately it is not in stock and they don't know, whren it will be.
I think I don't shoot that less, but you're right, I only need to scan the ones I like to keep and use.
Thank you!
The X100 produces very nice image-quality, that's right!
But for me the usability is more important. And I don't feel that sure with the X100 in every photographic situation, allthough it is great and I like the concept. With the 5D it's another thing, I can use the camera without thinking much about ist. The AF on the X100, especially with the OVF, is a strange thing for me, although I use it for maybe one year now.
Yeah, you are right, maybe I really need to try it. I just borrowed a Nikon F3 from a good freind. I will try shooting film in the next days.
The Ikon is very attractive!
Thank you, too! And I think, if I would go for film and like it, I would start to process the films at home!
Could be a very nicer combination. But isn't there so much focus shift with all the VC 35/14-Lenses?
It's here in the forum? I will search for thread, thank you!
You're right and I think that it will take time to know, if a RF is the best choice for one photographer.
That's right and I like the arm for the shutter.
That's very interesting for me! Could you write more about the whys of this argument?
Thank you! And in which points did you like the M8 more?
Ok, I'm ready. Hard work with so much answears and than in english!
Thank you all very much and I would welcome more answears and thoughts to this question.
Best regards!
than you all very much for your numerous answears! There are many helpful things for me.
I'll try to answear you now
:Very nice offer! But unfortunately it is not in stock and they don't know, whren it will be.
I think I don't shoot that less, but you're right, I only need to scan the ones I like to keep and use.
Thank you!
The X100 produces very nice image-quality, that's right!
But for me the usability is more important. And I don't feel that sure with the X100 in every photographic situation, allthough it is great and I like the concept. With the 5D it's another thing, I can use the camera without thinking much about ist. The AF on the X100, especially with the OVF, is a strange thing for me, although I use it for maybe one year now.
Yeah, you are right, maybe I really need to try it. I just borrowed a Nikon F3 from a good freind. I will try shooting film in the next days.
The Ikon is very attractive!
Thank you, too! And I think, if I would go for film and like it, I would start to process the films at home!
Regarding the time and cost of processing and scanning film, I would say if you love photography this shouldn't be a problem. It would still be much cheaper than playing golf for instance
Could be a very nicer combination. But isn't there so much focus shift with all the VC 35/14-Lenses?
It's here in the forum? I will search for thread, thank you!
You're right and I think that it will take time to know, if a RF is the best choice for one photographer.
That's right and I like the arm for the shutter.
That's very interesting for me! Could you write more about the whys of this argument?
Thank you! And in which points did you like the M8 more?
Ok, I'm ready. Hard work with so much answears and than in english!
Thank you all very much and I would welcome more answears and thoughts to this question.
Best regards!