M8 Upgrade costs and the declining Economy

This issue seems pretty simple. They put in roughly about the same amount of R&D as nikon and Canon to make a camera or lens, but they only sell of fraction of the units that Canon and Nikon do. Therefore, they must have a higher markup to make back the money they put into making the camera. So in order for them to lower the markup, they really need to have a camera line for the masses that they can churn out like widgets and everyone will need to buy one... that could certainly subsidize the cost of the R&D on their next DRF. Assuming that doesn't happen, I think we're stuck with current price markups.
 
There is of course a simple solution, open to anyone who likes the product but doesn't agree with how the company is run. Buy the company, and run it your way. That's what Andreas Kaufmann is doing.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Roger Hicks said:
How are you defining 'overpriced'?

And if the mark-up is 'exorbitant', in whose pocket is all this money ending up?

Cheers,

R.
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Overpriced comparied to Zeiss? Cosina? Yup, overpriced. You might argue it's worth it for the Leica cachet, and that's fine, but that doesn't really negate my opinion.

Where is the money going? To the people who own Leica, obviously. This isn't really that hard...
 
russianRF said:
Overpriced comparied to Zeiss? Cosina? Yup, overpriced. You might argue it's worth it for the Leica cachet, and that's fine, but that doesn't really negate my opinion.

Where is the money going? To the people who own Leica, obviously. This isn't really that hard...
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I think that's more of a "comparison" than a definition.

I know that's splitting hairs and, to be honest, I don't "defend" Leica but in a case such as this - as I have stated, no one's forcing any individual to either a) purchase the M8 (or M8.2) or b) get the upgrade - these things are merely options open to anyone who can afford them.

Now, is it "worth" it?
To those willing to pay the price stated, then, clearly, to them, it is worth it.

Cheers,
Dave
 
dcsang said:
The world, for the most part, seems to be stuck in a consumerist mind set that requires such downturns to shake people out of that mind set.
Dave
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Excuse me? I'm a little puzzled with your statement. The downturn is forcing businesses to become leaner, and to make their products more attractive to consumers. That usually involves either reducing the price, increasing the value, or both.

I don't have an M8/8.2, so I'm not sure what the differences are exactly. I will say that charging much of anything for a pure firmware upgrade is highway robbery.

I'm also not saying Leica "owes" anyone ANYTHING. I'm just saying their pricing makes them rather un-competitive, especially since in these leaner times people might decide that Zeiss or Cosina are "good enough."
 
Roger Hicks said:
There is of course a simple solution, open to anyone who likes the product but doesn't agree with how the company is run. Buy the company, and run it your way. That's what Andreas Kaufmann is doing.

Cheers,

Roger
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Now you're just being disingenuous. Again, Leica doesn't HAVE to do anything. They SHOULD change some things, in my opinion, but they're not REQUIRED to by any stretch.
 
dcsang said:
[A]s I have stated, no one's forcing any individual to either a) purchase the M8 (or M8.2) or b) get the upgrade - these things are merely options open to anyone who can afford them.

Now, is it "worth" it?
To those willing to pay the price stated, then, clearly, to them, it is worth it.

Cheers,
Dave
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And as I have stated, no one is forcing Leica to lower their prices. Would it be "worth it" to them to lower? I think so. I think they'd really open up their market.

When you were a kid, did you ever play a video game called "Lemonade Stand"? Did you ever learn how sometimes you could lower your prices to pennies a cup of profit, and make it all up (and more) in volume?

Maybe Leica has already run the numbers and discovered that they're doing things just the right way. But I hear heartache and whining all the time around here about how Leica is "in danger." But who knows? Maybe selling overpriced Panasonic* cameras is doing it for them.

*Please don't bother saying the rebranded Panasonics aren't overpriced -- they offer NOTHING over the Panasonics but the red dot, literally.
 
russianRF said:
I don't have an M8/8.2, so I'm not sure what the differences are exactly. I will say that charging much of anything for a pure firmware upgrade is highway robbery.
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In your opinion, that may be true - but, likely, there are people out there that can afford such prices so to them, it's not "highway robbery" but merely the cost of upkeep. Just because you feel that the price is high doesn't mean that it is high to everyone; just as those that may feel the price is "fine" doesn't necessarily mean that it's fine to everyone.

russianRF said:
I'm also not saying Leica "owes" anyone ANYTHING. I'm just saying their pricing makes them rather un-competitive, especially since in these leaner times people might decide that Zeiss or Cosina are "good enough."
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Leica's pricing makes them uncompetitive if Leica views Zeiss and Cosina (or anyone else) as competition. I certainly don't know if they do or they don't - I do know that it's likely that Zeiss and Cosina have more employees world wide than Leica does though - Leica Camera has, I believe, approximately 400 according to an article from 2008 in Pop Photo ( http://www.popphoto.com/popularphotographyfeatures/5316/the-future-of-leica.html ) - pretty lean company already for such a big brand no? ETA: That's the wrong article - I'm searching for the correct one that stated the number of employees that Leica Camera has worldwide

ETA: 1,013 employees worldwide - my bad - according to Business Week Stats:
http://investing.businessweek.com/research/stocks/snapshot/snapshot.asp?capid=4509058

I'm starting to sound a lot like Richard (and that's scary) because I just don't get why people get so pissed off by the fact that Leica charges what they can for their equipment and what people are willing to pay for said equipment.

Luckily there are "other options" in terms of film rangefinder cameras and at least one option for digital rangefinders for those that do not want, for whatever the reason, to buy Leica equipment. No one is forcing anyone anywhere to buy anything Leica so why the anger over pricing?

Cheers,
Dave
 
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Why do you assume we're angry? You're making quite an assumption. If anything, I'm angry that two or three posters, at once, have basically restated the same argument over and over again because I dared criticize Leica's pricing schemes. Leica has every right to charge what they're charging, as I have stated MULTIPLE times. That's fine.

But the company is having financial hard times, and is notorious for charging an arm and a leg for something that competitors can offer -- with almost the same level of quality -- for much less.

Please don't assume that you know how "angry" I am just from a few rather NON-inflammatory posts made over the Internet. You ARE starting to sound like a Leica fanboy, and yes, it is a little disturbing 😛
 
And let's all address the giant elephant in the room, shall we? Leica is incompetent in the digital arena, especially when compared with themselves and their own pioneering developments in 35mm film. If Leica of the late 20th and early 21st century had been worthy of Leica of the early 20th century, they would have produced one of the first consumer digital cameras. They wouldn't have needed to wait to piggy back on Panasonic, and then clumsily release the stop-gap that is the M8.

If Leica's digital ambitions were worthy of their heritage, they'd already be releasing a slew of Micro4/3rds cameras, at least in my opnion. You'd even be able to buy high-end cell phone cameras with Leica in them, as a possible example. The point is, they'd be out there more, doing SOMETHING.

I really admire Leica's film division, and hope to own some nice Leica gear one day soon. If I could afford it right now, I might even buy an MP ala carte. But even if I were Bill Gates, I'd still laugh at Leica's digital aspirations.
 
russianRF said:
Why do you assume we're angry? You're making quite an assumption. If anything, I'm angry that two or three posters, at once, have basically restated the same argument over and over again because I dared criticize Leica's pricing schemes. Leica has every right to charge what they're charging, as I have stated MULTIPLE times. That's fine.

But the company is having financial hard times, and is notorious for charging an arm and a leg for something that competitors can offer -- with almost the same level of quality -- for much less.

Please don't assume that you know how "angry" I am just from a few rather NON-inflammatory posts made over the Internet. You ARE starting to sound like a Leica fanboy, and yes, it is a little disturbing 😛
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Every company is having "financial hard times" - maybe Leica will go under, maybe they won't; maybe General Motors will file Chapter 11 today, maybe they won't; maybe you'll win the lottery, maybe you won't.

This is just my opinion but it seems an awful waste of energy to get so out of sorts over something you have no control over.

Why the issue with Leica's pricing? Are you buying Leica items? Do you own Leica items? Do you own Leica stock? Do you own any of their competitions stock (whoever that competition might be)?

I don't care if you criticize Leica's pricing but I'm curious why you would criticize something that you cannot have or do not have any input on.
I can understand criticizing the government because, usually, one can vote on such things and thereby have some input on it. I can understand criticizing a company if one holds stock in the company.

I just don't understand why you (or others) have issue with the pricing if you don't own any (stock or equipment), don't plan on owning any (stock or equipment), or don't want to own any (stock or equipment).

Now, if you want to own Leica stock/equipment but cannot afford it then I can understand the frustration.

As for me and whether I can afford Leica, own Leica, use Leica or what have you.. why does this disturb you? Really..what I do with my life/time/money really shouldn't impact your feelings at all.....

Cheers,
Dave
 
Upgrade only if it makes financial sense personally and evaluate for yourself if these upgrade features will actually help make better images. I'm doing so for the LCD glass, shutter, and vulcanite texture because the stock grip IMHO is crap!
 
Buy the company, and run it your way. That's what Andreas Kaufmann is doing.
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Wasn't trying to suggest they change their strategy... was really being more facetious than anything. Just saying why leica is in fact different from Canikon.
 
dcsang said:
This is just my opinion but it seems an awful waste of energy to get so out of sorts over something you have no control over.
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Hello, Mr. Pot, I'd like you to meet Mr. Kettle over here...

Why the issue with Leica's pricing? Are you buying Leica items? Do you own Leica items? Do you own Leica stock? Do you own any of their competitions stock (whoever that competition might be)?
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I don't need to be a movie producer to have an opinion if a movie is bad; likewise I don't need to own a camera company to have an opinion that a camera company's products are overpriced.

I don't care if you criticize Leica's pricing but I'm curious why you would criticize something that you cannot have or do not have any input on.
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Again, I don't care if you defend Leica's pricing but I'm curious why you would defend something that you cannot have or do not have any input on.

I just don't understand why you (or others) have issue with the pricing if you don't own any (stock or equipment), don't plan on owning any (stock or equipment), or don't want to own any (stock or equipment).
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How do you know what I plan on having or what I wish to have? If anything, I've mentioned that I wish to have a film Leica someday soon. I would maybe wish the same for a digital Leica rangefinder, if it were full frame, if it didn't require UV/IR cut filters to get a good picture in camera, if if if etc.

As for me and whether I can afford Leica, own Leica, use Leica or what have you.. why does this disturb you? Really..what I do with my life/time/money really shouldn't impact your feelings at all...
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I really don't give a damn what you want, what you can afford, etc. I just have an opinion about Leica and their pricing. That's all.
 
russianRF said:
I'm also not saying Leica "owes" anyone ANYTHING. I'm just saying their pricing makes them rather un-competitive, especially since in these leaner times people might decide that Zeiss or Cosina are "good enough."
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In the market for M8 upgrades Leica has no competition... They can charge what they want... this is not BestBuy we all signed up for when we went down the Leica camera path...
 
I suspect that a year from now, thoughts of buying stuff will have moved to thoughts of just paying the bills. All this bailout is trying to do is restore things as they were. Bad idea. Consumerism is clearly endangered.
 
sfokevin said:
In the market for M8 upgrades Leica has no competition... They can charge what they want... this is not BestBuy we all signed up for when we went down the Leica camera path...
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I would argue that they have competition in the sense that those who do not own an M8 may not wish to own one in part because of the cost of upgrading it. From what I've read here, you can buy a very good DSLR new from Nikon or Canon for the price of upgrading the M8. Again, it's personal choice, and Leica does almost stand alone in the digital rangefinder market. Obviously, they've got some people convinced that the pricing is okay if there are people who are paying to upgrade. I'll conceede that, sure.
 
Phase 1: collect underpants.
Phase 2: ...?
Phase 3: PROFIT!!!

what's leica's business model? anyone?
 
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