M8 Upgrade costs and the declining Economy

russianRF said:
Tu quoque, or to translate, "you yourself," or "you as well."

I want a film Leica, would pay the premium for it, and have said as much. I haven't really been that angry at all; most of the anger and invective has come from Leica owners who seem to take my criticism of a company *very* personally.

I've posted no more here in this thread than some of the people who disagree with me. I've outlined my ideas and beliefs in a calm, collected manner. I got a little testy, ONCE, because I was tired of someone taking my opinions so personally, when there was no reason to do so.

And don't worry, even if I had the money, I would indeed not be buying an M8/8.2 at any time in the near future. I do believe I am allowed to have an opinion about it. While my opinion is debatable, I wouldn't consider it terribly unreasonable, since there are companies that make arguably more complex cameras than the M8 yet somehow manage to charge less money for it. If someone has an opinion that the M8 is worth the money, great; if that person can afford to buy the M8, even better.

I don't have anything against Porche, either, but I know that you can buy a Corvette for much less money, and that many reputable auto review magazines (like "Car & Driver") have said that you'd get a lot more for your money out of the Corvette than the Porche. But just stating my opinion about Porche isn't an attach on Porche owners personally. Likewise, there's no reason to get upset about my comments reguarding the M8. If it's a good camera for you personally, then wonderful for you. I personally think Leica could grow its brand and make more profit in the long run if they didn't charge as much, and didn't charge as much for the upgrades. That's just my opinion. That's all I've ever really said.
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your comments come across as very condescending and you act like you have some knowledge that the rest of us are not privy to. it sounds like you think people who buy new leicas are stupid for spending their money on something so overpriced.

and the porsche vs. corvette argument is a nice parallel to the leica vs. zeiss/cosina argument. the 'vette/zeiss/cosina may be the best value out there, and it may get you 90% of the performance, but they'll never compare to shooting an M3 or driving a 911.

just my .02.

bob
 
It's funny you mention Porches and Corvettes, since Porche is doing very well for itself right now, while GM is imploding in on itself.

I also think the M8 is far too expensive a camera. It is probably the best digital rangefinder around, but only having to compete with Epson doesn't make that a big win for Leica. This very forum is full of people complaining about this bug or that bug, in between posts about the great shots they've got with them. The M8 really isn't 5000 dollars of awesome.

That said, I really don't think Leica would be better served by selling the cameras for less. One would think that if there was demand for a cheap digital rangefinder that Nikon or Canon would have built one by now. Leica might get a few more sales with a Budget M8, but enough to warrant lowering the price? I have my doubts. My guess is that there are enough people with money buying M8s for them to charge what they do for them. I couldn't fathom spending 2K upgrading a camera, but clearly people do. That's Leica's market. Not me. Not people complaining on the Internet.
 
funkaoshi said:
It's funny you mention Porches and Corvettes, since Porche is doing very well for itself right now, while GM is imploding in on itself.

I also think the M8 is far too expensive a camera. It is probably the best digital rangefinder around, but only having to compete with Epson doesn't make that a big win for Leica. This very forum is full of people complaining about this bug or that bug, in between posts about the great shots they've got with them. The M8 really isn't 5000 dollars of awesome.

That said, I really don't think Leica would be better served by selling the cameras for less. One would think that if there was demand for a cheap digital rangefinder that Nikon or Canon would have built one by now. Leica might get a few more sales with a Budget M8, but enough to warrant lowering the price? I have my doubts. My guess is that there are enough people with money buying M8s for them to charge what they do for them. I couldn't fathom spending 2K upgrading a camera, but clearly people do. That's Leica's market. Not me. Not people complaining on the Internet.
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Hey! No fair introducing facts into the argument!

Cheers,

R.
 
kevin m said:
Well that's enough to upset the Leica faithful, russianRF. It's not a tool to perform a task, it's a religion, so the faithful rush in and protect it against infidels like you. 😀

You can try all you like to be objective about it, but objectivity has no place in a discussion about faith.
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Yes, if you think of Logic and Reason as a religion, I guess it's only right to think of such Kafkaesque musings as heretical. :angel:
 
wgcho said:
Interesting, I called up THE leica dealer here in Seoul, and was told that you can walk in with an M8 and get it upgraded out the door next day. Too bad the price is now quite expensive due to the currency rate spike (was 1.4M KRW in Feb, now 2.4M KRW ~ $1500 USD for full upgrade)
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?? They upgrade M8s in Seoul.😕 That must raise some eyebrows in Solms...
 
I doubt that there are very many people who actually OWN an M8 that would be put off by another couple of grand. A lot of people equate a high price with great quality. Still others equate it with bragging rights, the "my camera cost more than yours, HA HA" syndrome.

The optimum selling price is a balance between price and demand. You keep raising prices until demand flattens out. If you sell too cheaply you're not making the money you could. If you sell too dear you lose the money from the additional sales you lost. Leica seems to have lost sight of the balance point, but part of that right now is due to the economy. Lowering the price would destroy that prestige, as well as getting people upset that they'd paid too much last month. Their best course would be to wait out the economy and perhaps try and convince more people that a shiny new Leica is a better way to impress their friends than a new Posche. The rest of us can buy used or maybe a shiny new Zeiss or Bessa.
 
Roger Hicks said:
What do you think that 'something' might be?

Cheers,

Roger
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Well isn't that the million dollar question? I mean, clearly, the guys running Leica haven't figured it out.
I understand the love for Leica's equipment, as it is a love that I share. But frankly, I don't see how anyone can defend the business decisions of a company that has been floundering for years.
Until they can figure it out, we customers have every right to question/applaud/criticize what's going on in Solms. I have invested a lot of money in Leica gear. And from time to time, that stuff has to go back to them for repairs/support. I'd like the company to be around to service what they've sold me.

Really, I don't understand one of your earlier comments. You said that to lower the price on upgrades would be to admit that they were overpriced to begin with. Following that logic, that means the M8 and a host of lenses are overpriced - since the company has lowered the prices through rebates?
 
tbarker13 said:
Well isn't that the million dollar question? I mean, clearly, the guys running Leica haven't figured it out.
I understand the love for Leica's equipment, as it is a love that I share. But frankly, I don't see how anyone can defend the business decisions of a company that has been floundering for years.
Until they can figure it out, we customers have every right to question/applaud/criticize what's going on in Solms. . .
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Dear Tim,

As I pointed out earlier, Andreas Kaufmann has put his money where his mouth is and (I believe) is turning the company around. To point to Leica's problems in past years is a bit like saying that Chrysler is a success today becaise it was a success years ago. Companies' fortunes change.

I don't know how to turn Leica around, and it doesn't sound like you do. Surely this suggests that there's not much point in either of us complaining that they're getting it wrong, when we can't offer any useful suggestions on how to get it right.

A widespread view inside Leica is that their huge mistake was going public in the first place, as this introduced short-termism into a formerly private company that had traditionally taken the long view.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Roger Hicks said:
There is of course a simple solution, open to anyone who likes the product but doesn't agree with how the company is run. Buy the company, and run it your way. That's what Andreas Kaufmann is doing.

Cheers,

Roger
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Hey Roger, he(Andreas Kaufmann) might own the company, but he has just shifted it over to Rudolf Spiller the new CEO (former sales management advisor). Now we have only to cross our fingers and hope for the better.

I don't think the M8 was overpriced when I bought mine, but, I do think they are now overpricing themselves. I guess we will see.

It is a tool that I am very comfortable using in any of my non DSLR situations. I will continue using mine until I need something better. For now, it's the best for me.
 
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Bnack said:
So in order for them to lower the markup, they really need to have a camera line for the masses that they can churn out like widgets and everyone will need to buy one... that could certainly subsidize the cost of the R&D on their next DRF. Assuming that doesn't happen, I think we're stuck with current price markups.
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This is the precise reason I have stated they should get into the micro4/3 market. The basic idea of the format (small, mirrorless cameras with small lenses intended to take anywhere) dovetails so naturally with many of the company's core values it seems they were made to be a part of it. Collaborate with Panasonic on electronics, but keep the design in-house (no more rebranded, more expensive versions of Panasonic gear). Make the thing take design cues from the Ms. Launch it with a set of 12, 14, 18, 25, and 45mm prime lenses. Manufacture in Asia under supervision, a la Zeiss. Sell it at a "reasonable" Leica premium as opposed to what happens with the Leica versions of rebranded Panasonics. Watch as everyone that has lusted after a Leica but hasn't been able to afford it runs in and grabs one. Reinvest in the m9 and charge whatever needs to be charged for that camera to be done right.

Would it work? I think so, but who knows. Certainly, it would make more sense than much of what they've been up to in the digital space.
 
For gawd's sake you lot ... I'm exhausted after reading through this thread ... good though! 😀
 
Roger said: "A widespread view inside Leica is that their huge mistake was going public in the first place, as this introduced short-termism into a formerly private company that had traditionally taken the long view. "

There is no long view in consumer's minds. Not in the camera business. Nikon and Canon know that. Leica and now Epson probably know it, but have found a niche where they can still sell old technology at silly expensive prices. And they are milking it to the end.

Oddly enough, it's Panasonic that is probably going to mess up Leica's high priced digital game. The G1 has shown that a good lens on a small digital, when combined with internal digital processing that corrects any shortcomings of the lens, can trump Leica's elves who hand build expensive lenses. And do it for $700, camera and lens. Panasonic has opened the door to Leica's end. IMHO, of course.
 
Impatience and greed are part of the reason the world economy is in the state that it currently is in.
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No worries. If the world economy keeps going as it is, pretty soon it will be financially viable for Leica to have five Germans in white lab coats sign off on every M that goes out the door, just like the good old days. Leica just had to wait for a depression to make the world do business its way again. 😀
 
I was indeed astonished, as I said I would be.

I don't need a great deal of mock humility. As you say, I've been wrong often enough.
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I'm just surprised you're still playing the "I have inside information you peasants don't have" card in these discussions, that's all.
 
kevin m said:
No worries. If the world economy keeps going as it is, pretty soon it will be financially viable for Leica to have five Germans in white lab coats sign off on every M that goes out the door, just like the good old days. Leica just had to wait for a depression to make the world do business its way again. 😀
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And the merest hint of trouble from your M8 will have the Leica service van pulling up at your door! 😀
 
Pickett Wilson said:
Roger said: "A widespread view inside Leica is that their huge mistake was going public in the first place, as this introduced short-termism into a formerly private company that had traditionally taken the long view. "

There is no long view in consumer's minds. Not in the camera business. Nikon and Canon know that. Leica and now Epson probably know it, but have found a niche where they can still sell old technology at silly expensive prices. And they are milking it to the end.

Oddly enough, it's Panasonic that is probably going to mess up Leica's high priced digital game. The G1 has shown that a good lens on a small digital, when combined with internal digital processing that corrects any shortcomings of the lens, can trump Leica's elves who hand build expensive lenses. And do it for $700, camera and lens. Panasonic has opened the door to Leica's end. IMHO, of course.
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I thought Panasonic would have bought Leica by now and turned it into a lens design division.
 
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