eleskin
Well-known
We all know the M9 is not cheap, and if you take into consideration the improvements, maybe the price is justified, for now, but not in the long run. Like the M9, the top of the line Nikon and Canon offerings are more money than the M9. Enter the new Pentax 645D which is rumored to hit the street after October 2010 for $9,400 USD at a whopping 40 Megapixels. I just posted this to put into perspective what the $7,000 to $10,000 range will buy right now. Fuji is going to break new ground with the X100, and I would bet within a year, we will be seeing for the first time, new innovations in digital rangefinders at much cheaper prices than the M9. For rangefinder enthusiasts, this is all good news for more choice. $1000 USD for this new Fuji will set a new benchmark in price and quality for the digital rangefinder user. I believe the lone awaited digital offerings from Zeiss and Cosina are in the pipeline and will be seen in late 2011-early 2012.
What I am essentially saying here is Pentax will break ground with the 645D at the $10,000 level, and Fuji will cap the bottom at $1000. This will put enormous pressure and squeeze prices to the mid $5,000 range for what is now costing $7,000 to $8500. The makers of the $20,000 plus will be under pressure as well. Personally, I would never buy an S2 with the Pentax coming out. With the Fuji and what is sure to follow, I would never buy an M9 for $7,000 when we will see potentially better cameras in the $2,000-$4000 range once the Fuji sells like crazy and the big camera makers finally get it after being asleep for years.
Does this mean Leica will be in touble? Maybe. If they are smart, they will cut the price back to the M8 level, and finally offer a digital CL priced between the X1 and the M9. They could also start the excellent lens rebate program knocking off $500 from the prices they are charging.
We, rangefinder users are the winners in that we will have more choice than ever in price ranges all can afford, from the budget minded to those who have extra cash to blow. The M9 Titanium is an interesting camera, but the new Fuji is much more exciting to me because it tells all of us that affordable real choices for those who actually take pictures are coming. The collectors will be horrified, but the photographers will be overjoyed!
What I am essentially saying here is Pentax will break ground with the 645D at the $10,000 level, and Fuji will cap the bottom at $1000. This will put enormous pressure and squeeze prices to the mid $5,000 range for what is now costing $7,000 to $8500. The makers of the $20,000 plus will be under pressure as well. Personally, I would never buy an S2 with the Pentax coming out. With the Fuji and what is sure to follow, I would never buy an M9 for $7,000 when we will see potentially better cameras in the $2,000-$4000 range once the Fuji sells like crazy and the big camera makers finally get it after being asleep for years.
Does this mean Leica will be in touble? Maybe. If they are smart, they will cut the price back to the M8 level, and finally offer a digital CL priced between the X1 and the M9. They could also start the excellent lens rebate program knocking off $500 from the prices they are charging.
We, rangefinder users are the winners in that we will have more choice than ever in price ranges all can afford, from the budget minded to those who have extra cash to blow. The M9 Titanium is an interesting camera, but the new Fuji is much more exciting to me because it tells all of us that affordable real choices for those who actually take pictures are coming. The collectors will be horrified, but the photographers will be overjoyed!
ashrafazlan
Established
Interesting points, I'm pretty sure Sony/Zeiss/Cosina will jump into this market once they realize just how profitable it is (Olympus and Panasonic seem to be doing well)
I'm also looking forward to Sigma's new SD1 sensor in a DPx style body, that would be pretty amazing
I'm also looking forward to Sigma's new SD1 sensor in a DPx style body, that would be pretty amazing
bluepenguin
Established
Leica's new lens price may drop, but to find a good old lens will be harder everyday.
Medium format professional camera versus a niche luxury camera? You don't buy Leica for the most bang for your buck...
I think you are over-stating the proposed popularity of the X100. The concept is a hit here, but is it a huge hit in all segments of the market? Doesn't seem to be... If digital rangefinders sold in great quantities, then we would already have a bunch of them on the market. The fuji isn't a rangefinder... it is a rangefinder like camera.
Fuji introducing this camera at $1000 could make manufactuers not even try to make this type of camera since they may not see any room for return.
That's a big if... Nikon and Canon are never going to make a new rangefinder... they know it's a niche product.
Dreams...
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
There are a lot of conclusions be jumped to based on a camera that doesn't exist in the flesh yet. The X100 has become an RFF cult camera before anyone has even seen a working one!
Why would collectors be horrified?
It marks the return of a type of camera that was almost extinct: the fixed-lens RF. I think it is great. I tend to collect interesting cameras. Okay- a lot of cameras
I do not see it as competition for an M9.
It marks the return of a type of camera that was almost extinct: the fixed-lens RF. I think it is great. I tend to collect interesting cameras. Okay- a lot of cameras
I do not see it as competition for an M9.
ruby.monkey
Veteran
The X100 is a point'n'shoot - one with a very interesting finder, but a P&S nontheless. I can't see it ushering in a new era of affordable digital rangefinders as we think of them, with manual focus guided by a lens-driven coincident-image distance measuring system; but I can see it (plus, possibly, the phase-detection AF system debuted in the F300EXR) raising EVIL cameras to the point where we no longer care, at a price point that'll be not too painful to swallow.
Who knows - perhaps even Leica will drop its mechanical RF system in favour of something more modern?
Who knows - perhaps even Leica will drop its mechanical RF system in favour of something more modern?
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thegman
Veteran
I think people buy Leicas because they want Leicas. No brand new Leica represents value for money, and I don't think buyers of them give great consideration to other options.
Sometimes you just want something, like I want a Lomo LC-A+. There is no logical reason, I *just do*. I think the M9 falls into that category, people will tell themselves it's because a range finder allows stealthy shooting, or a "Leica glow", or some other difficult to prove reason. But they just want it, and that's fine.
From my own personal experience, what do you think got more attention at a wedding, my Zeiss Ikon or 10 different Canikon DSLRs and 20 different Lumix compacts? If you want stealthy, get a camera which looks like everything else. Rant over.
Sometimes you just want something, like I want a Lomo LC-A+. There is no logical reason, I *just do*. I think the M9 falls into that category, people will tell themselves it's because a range finder allows stealthy shooting, or a "Leica glow", or some other difficult to prove reason. But they just want it, and that's fine.
From my own personal experience, what do you think got more attention at a wedding, my Zeiss Ikon or 10 different Canikon DSLRs and 20 different Lumix compacts? If you want stealthy, get a camera which looks like everything else. Rant over.
eleskin
Well-known
The Zeiss Ikon Question
The Zeiss Ikon Question
Zeiss has stated that they do intend to make a digital rangefinder when the technology is right for their lenses and standards of excellence. The Zeiss Ikon, in my own opinion, is a superior design to the M series Leicas in that the body is not constrained to the old M design hence a much better viewfinder with superior eye relief. If we do see a Zeiss digital rangefinder between $2,500 and $4,000, even if it has a slight crop, I would buy one over the M9 any day. The technology is already here and becoming cheaper by the day. I am sure Zeiss and Cosina are taking note and something is in the works. The Epson RD1 taught us that lesson.
As for the design philosophy of the X100. This is not only for the rangefinder crowd. It seems retro is making a comeback here, and Fuji went all the way. The olympus is a half step. I could see Nikon and Canon rethinking some of their designs where, at least in their DSLR offerings, there may be versions of their current lineup that may include conventional shutter speed dials and aperture rings on lenses again. Kind of like a digital Nikon F3 or F4 of sorts.
You could have a retro full frame EVIL camera with a shutter speed dial kind of like the X1 but with interchangable lenses and an electronic viewfinder eyepiece in the same position ads the Leica M, Voigtlander Bessa R and Zeiss cameras.
If these are pipe dreams, so be it. I do feel in my gut, however, that we will be seeing lower priced options soon from other camera makers. The trends in minaturization are here to stay, and they give M mount lenses new options. They will not be cheap. Anything over $1,000 is not cheap by many peoples standards. $2,500-$4,000 is expensive, but not out of reach like the M9 is for many, including myself where I have bills to pay and a family to feed. The M8 at $4,700 was a squeeze for me when I bought it new, but that was acceptable even today. $4,700 is alot of cash, and it should buy you an alternative as good or better than the M9 with current technology that is getting cheaper by they day.
The Zeiss Ikon Question
Zeiss has stated that they do intend to make a digital rangefinder when the technology is right for their lenses and standards of excellence. The Zeiss Ikon, in my own opinion, is a superior design to the M series Leicas in that the body is not constrained to the old M design hence a much better viewfinder with superior eye relief. If we do see a Zeiss digital rangefinder between $2,500 and $4,000, even if it has a slight crop, I would buy one over the M9 any day. The technology is already here and becoming cheaper by the day. I am sure Zeiss and Cosina are taking note and something is in the works. The Epson RD1 taught us that lesson.
As for the design philosophy of the X100. This is not only for the rangefinder crowd. It seems retro is making a comeback here, and Fuji went all the way. The olympus is a half step. I could see Nikon and Canon rethinking some of their designs where, at least in their DSLR offerings, there may be versions of their current lineup that may include conventional shutter speed dials and aperture rings on lenses again. Kind of like a digital Nikon F3 or F4 of sorts.
You could have a retro full frame EVIL camera with a shutter speed dial kind of like the X1 but with interchangable lenses and an electronic viewfinder eyepiece in the same position ads the Leica M, Voigtlander Bessa R and Zeiss cameras.
If these are pipe dreams, so be it. I do feel in my gut, however, that we will be seeing lower priced options soon from other camera makers. The trends in minaturization are here to stay, and they give M mount lenses new options. They will not be cheap. Anything over $1,000 is not cheap by many peoples standards. $2,500-$4,000 is expensive, but not out of reach like the M9 is for many, including myself where I have bills to pay and a family to feed. The M8 at $4,700 was a squeeze for me when I bought it new, but that was acceptable even today. $4,700 is alot of cash, and it should buy you an alternative as good or better than the M9 with current technology that is getting cheaper by they day.
eleskin
Well-known
Leica does not have to drop the Rangefinder
Leica does not have to drop the Rangefinder
Leica does not have to drop the rangefinder to offer a less expensive alternative. Voiglander and Zeiss have shown us that. What they have to do is make a less expensive digital CL for $3,500 or so. They will still sell M9's, but the digital CL will open up the Leica M system to more people at an affordable price. This would translate for them to more lens sales and more profit. In my book, Lenses are the most important thing in my book, and I could not give a hoot about what camera body I am using. I selected M glass (used of corse, I have bills to pay) due to the signatures they have in terms of image rendition (an artistic judgement, my used Noctilux is proof of that). If I mounted them on a cheaper box that did the job, I would not care. The photos are the end result, not photo jewelry.
A photographer, especially one that is interested in ART, would like to have, as the ultimate tool, a box or camera that is universal and can use any lens ever made. Lenses are to be selected like paint brushes due to their unique characteristics and effects. Lenses are prized above all else. The Micro 4/3 mount is a step in the right direction in that the lack of mirror box permits M lenses, or any other 35mm lens ever made to be used. We really need something full rame that can shoot with anything. That would be true freedom of choice for pure creativity!
Leica does not have to drop the Rangefinder
Leica does not have to drop the rangefinder to offer a less expensive alternative. Voiglander and Zeiss have shown us that. What they have to do is make a less expensive digital CL for $3,500 or so. They will still sell M9's, but the digital CL will open up the Leica M system to more people at an affordable price. This would translate for them to more lens sales and more profit. In my book, Lenses are the most important thing in my book, and I could not give a hoot about what camera body I am using. I selected M glass (used of corse, I have bills to pay) due to the signatures they have in terms of image rendition (an artistic judgement, my used Noctilux is proof of that). If I mounted them on a cheaper box that did the job, I would not care. The photos are the end result, not photo jewelry.
A photographer, especially one that is interested in ART, would like to have, as the ultimate tool, a box or camera that is universal and can use any lens ever made. Lenses are to be selected like paint brushes due to their unique characteristics and effects. Lenses are prized above all else. The Micro 4/3 mount is a step in the right direction in that the lack of mirror box permits M lenses, or any other 35mm lens ever made to be used. We really need something full rame that can shoot with anything. That would be true freedom of choice for pure creativity!
Sorry, but I don't get how a camera that is designed with easy manual operation as one of its selling points is a point and shoot...
user237428934
User deletion pending
If they really said this then this pure marketing BS. The message is: their lenses are so superior that no existing technology scatches the quality boundaries. Believe this or not.
Steve Ash
Established
Affordable Leica
Affordable Leica
What I get is that you would like to have a Leica M for about 3500$. What I do not get is why you ignore the large used market. If you want to own a Leica M for the a.m. price simply by a used Leica in good condition. Leica dropped the production of the M8 for this simple reason only.
If you choose a analog model, you can buy it, use it for a year and sell it for the same price a year later if required.
Regards
Steve
Affordable Leica
What I get is that you would like to have a Leica M for about 3500$. What I do not get is why you ignore the large used market. If you want to own a Leica M for the a.m. price simply by a used Leica in good condition. Leica dropped the production of the M8 for this simple reason only.
If you choose a analog model, you can buy it, use it for a year and sell it for the same price a year later if required.
Regards
Steve
ramosa
B&W
i don't see the prices of new leica lenses dropping. new prices have increased over the past few years, with lenses selling well enough that quite a few are consistently out of stock. if the price holds constant, it'd be good in my eyes, but i suspect prices to keeping moving north
cam
the need for speed
what? actually, i did buy a Leica for the most bang for the buck. i bought it used and already had lenses for the system. it was a hell of a lot cheaper than anything else would have been.
i have to respectfully disagree. i did not buy a Leica because i wanted a Leica. i bought a Leica because Epson did not make an R-D2 and i wanted an upgrade in quality from the R-D1 (which i still use and love as well).
i wish i could now afford to buy the M9 because i would love full frame, but i can't afford it. still, it would be the cheapest FF option out there for me because i have a stunning collection of glass. to get the equivalent with another manufacturer would cost quite a bit more than an M9 body, especially as i would not sell my M lenses.
i like rangefinders. scratch that, i love rangefinders. that is how i prefer to shoot. there are NO other options but Leica right now.
(as for value for money on the new items, i wouldn't know. i've never been able to afford anything new from Leica. but the used gear i've bought, i would say is worth every penny and then some.)
user237428934
User deletion pending
I think the nice thing of the X100 design is, that retro means an optimization of usability compared to other similar cameras.
If you take a top end DSLR then they are highly optimized regarding usability. Putting an old style speed dial on top looks retro but was a big step back regarding usability.
bwcolor
Veteran
Many good point. What I see:
LEICA:
S2 don't know if this will be profitable.
M9 pedigree keeps high price but improving performance/technology.
M/High Tech: $4000 and a replacement for the market segment that use to buy film 'M's. Probably won't be full frame sensor in that this would compete directly with M9 cameras, but would have interchangeable lenses.
X1... That market segment would provide a high end Fujifilm X100 alternative.
Rebranded cameras... It is possible that the X1 morphs into a rebranded camera.. ie upgraded X100.
Zeiss/CV/Contax:
Digital full frame Contax 'M' with interchangeable lenses for $4000
LEICA:
S2 don't know if this will be profitable.
M9 pedigree keeps high price but improving performance/technology.
M/High Tech: $4000 and a replacement for the market segment that use to buy film 'M's. Probably won't be full frame sensor in that this would compete directly with M9 cameras, but would have interchangeable lenses.
X1... That market segment would provide a high end Fujifilm X100 alternative.
Rebranded cameras... It is possible that the X1 morphs into a rebranded camera.. ie upgraded X100.
Zeiss/CV/Contax:
Digital full frame Contax 'M' with interchangeable lenses for $4000
For the money I want this.
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