rybolt
Well-known
I'm looking for advice to help me with a decision I need to make.
I'm a Fuji X user. Between my wife and myself we have 6 X bodies and a full compliment of lenses including a pile of adapted lenses and mount adapters.
I recently picked up a large collection of items that included an M9 body, 21 and 25mm Biogons and a 90mm f2.8 Tele-Elmarit. The body had sensor corrosion and has been sent to Leica for repair.
I'm seriously considering keeping this kit and using it along side the Fuji kit. I still have my 50mm Wetzlar Summicron that I picked up at the Leica Schule in 1986 so I'd have a very nice four lens kit with a total investment of less than $500. If I sold the set (except for the 50mm which lives on my original M6) I'd have pictures of dead presidents to put in the bank which brings me very little joy.
My feeling is that I would probably shoot the M9 as a black and white camera. Currently I do quite a lot of black and white but use Nik to convert the Fuji jpegs.
My question is: Does anyone else run the Fuji X and Leica M cameras at the same time and, if so, what's your experience with using it as a dedicated black and white camera as opposed to converting the Fuji files.
Thanks for any guidance.
I'm a Fuji X user. Between my wife and myself we have 6 X bodies and a full compliment of lenses including a pile of adapted lenses and mount adapters.
I recently picked up a large collection of items that included an M9 body, 21 and 25mm Biogons and a 90mm f2.8 Tele-Elmarit. The body had sensor corrosion and has been sent to Leica for repair.
I'm seriously considering keeping this kit and using it along side the Fuji kit. I still have my 50mm Wetzlar Summicron that I picked up at the Leica Schule in 1986 so I'd have a very nice four lens kit with a total investment of less than $500. If I sold the set (except for the 50mm which lives on my original M6) I'd have pictures of dead presidents to put in the bank which brings me very little joy.
My feeling is that I would probably shoot the M9 as a black and white camera. Currently I do quite a lot of black and white but use Nik to convert the Fuji jpegs.
My question is: Does anyone else run the Fuji X and Leica M cameras at the same time and, if so, what's your experience with using it as a dedicated black and white camera as opposed to converting the Fuji files.
Thanks for any guidance.
35photo
Well-known
Yeah, I've used my M9(which is in the shop now) and my X-Pro2 at the same time easy. At times I like the color from the M9 other times X-Pro2.. In terms of B&W I haven't done many conversions with the X-Pro2..Love the conversions I've done with the M9 and my 50 1.4 Summilux ver II.. I use Lightroom and VSCO presets for both color and B&W..
Ronald M
Veteran
No idea what a Fuji X is, but I have space for Nikon SLR digital & film, Leica m digital & film.
Do you have a rainy day fund of 6 months pay. Have you started your retirement fund ? Is your house and car paid for or do you wish to keep burning money on interest? Run some comparison files, same time & place. Leica is not the out & out outstanding camera it once was.
I guess it is up to you how to use your money.
Do you have a rainy day fund of 6 months pay. Have you started your retirement fund ? Is your house and car paid for or do you wish to keep burning money on interest? Run some comparison files, same time & place. Leica is not the out & out outstanding camera it once was.
I guess it is up to you how to use your money.
Richard G
Veteran
The straight ooc M9 black and white jpegs are nice. I combined Fuji X100 and Monochrom on an overseas trip. No problem. I think you can combine anything.
Fraser
Well-known
I'm not sure I would keep a camera just for black and white since you can set up the m9 to shoot raw (colour) and black and white jpegs at the same time, I would just keep it because it's nice to have a Leica body to use with Leica lenses.
Good luck.
Good luck.
pechelman
resu deretsiger
long post ahead!
since we first know each other from the fuji-x-forum, it's probably no surprise to you, rybolt, that I'm also a fuji user. I started with the fuji's a few years back and really quite enjoyed them. X100s, Xpro1, XT1, and a host of lenses. I really wanted to love the hybrid viewfinders, but what it boiled down for me was that there was no real confirmation of what they had focused on. I also didnt like the focus by wire. It was tolerable in EVF, especially on the XT1, but it wasnt what I would call "an enjoyable tactile experience". More of a means to an ends. Though I will say, I was never left wanting with the fuji lens quality.
What I learned in shooting the fuji's is just how important the photographic process is to me. While the results (a digital image, a print, a photo book, etc) are very nice and I enjoy them, the reason I shoot is to shoot, especially with the lack of a real darkroom side of the process. The fuji's just werent as enjoyable as they had once been for me, especially after the many firmware updates on the XT1. It just got too complicated, too many menus, too many options. I just wasnt willing to put in the time to learn it. And even if I was, there'd still be a bunch of layers of things that just "get in the way" between me and the scene\subject.
So I sold the XT1 and most of my lenses. I still have the x100s and xpro1 along with the 18/2, 35/1.4, 27/2.8, 60, and 8/2.8mk2, but I havent been using them at all. So I'm considering unloading everything, unless I go and convert the xpro1 to full IR.
Switching to the M system (240/246) for me has been a breath of fresh air. They've been freeing to me in that I can just shoot and not worry about what AF mode I have on or what film simulation or what DR setting or if I have the left or right eye detect on. What I've also discovered in this process, is that I've been shooting a lot more, more consistently, and I've been enjoying myself a lot more. All of this has resulted in what I feel is a positive feedback cycle in that I feel my photography has also improved since switching. I.e. my results improved without me really focusing on trying to do that.
Regarding the monochrom conversion from a color Fuji sensor or a color m240 sensor, really, it's about the same for me. Slight differences, but most of the same things apply. The large difference is that i no longer shoot jpg like I did on the fuji's 97% of the time. I've never tried jpg on the leica's to be honest, but mostly because on the 240 it struggles a bit with white balance and color and on the 246, well, it sort of defeats the purpose of this camera to shoot only in jpg. I will say though, I used to do the same fuji jpeg to SEP2 process, and while I loved the results, i hated the workflow of needing 2 files and 2 programs. Since getting the leica's ive backed off a bit and developed a preset that mostly emulates what I want out of the SEP2 results. So now I also spend less time on the computer....though I could have done this with a fuji as well.
The results from all the cameras have been totally acceptable to me. The leicas are usually "better", but honestly, I'm not sure it's enough to get me to switch from the fuji if you asked me to blind choose based off image samples, perhaps with the exception of the 246 which is just a wonderful camera. I'll also say that I no longer even have to think about sharpening settings and x-trans detail issues (foiliage, high-iso smearing, plastic skin, etc), which while rarely an issue for me, did present itself on a handful of occasions. I will preface this with saying that I'm unusual in that I think most of these new cameras with more and more megapixels are of little interest to me. I feel either fuji or m has really obtained with 35mm film was about in providing "good enough" detail for enlargements in a portable size. While it falls short in DR it is way beyond in high iso. Maybe one day we can have it all on digital.
For your m9, I'd see if they would offer you an upgrade to an m9m or m246 if you are truly considering this camera as a b&w only camera. Though maybe you want the m9 for the colors people seem to love from the CCD, though honestly, David Farkas from reddotforum did a solid 3 part review of the color differences that showed it's possible to get pretty much an indistinguishable result from the m240 with simple tweaks. And the 240 series is a nicer camera in actual use.
And last but not least, for a travel camera, it's a toss up in my opinion. I know you like to go on vacation with the sole purpose of shooting a lot and with a lot of varying focal lengths. In that respect, the leica is clearly inferior. It's heavier, inherently limited to prime or variable lenses, and focal lengths below about 90mm in practical use. The EVF attachment or using LV is clunky and not enjoyable, so I never use them. They're significantly more expensive if they are stolen, damaged, lost. It will take a bit of discipline I think to change what you bring.
On a recent trip of mine I brought both 240 and 246, but then only a 28 and 50 which lived on the cameras. I swapped them occasionally before going out for the day, but that was it. Kept things simple and in a small camera bag. I needed 2 filters which were the same diameter, so those could also live on the lenses if I needed them to, so as to avoid needing filter cases. The batteries lasted for days of shooting, not hours, so I needed fewer batteries and spent less time charging, except when I forgot to switch the camera off in my bag and it took 500 pictures of the inside of my bag. haha. When I traveled with fuji's, I bought like 4-5 batteries for each camera and on occasion went through a few in a day, and I dont really shoot that much. (maybe I avg about 100 a day?)
i should probably stop typing now before this gets too crazy
but if you have any other detailed questions i would be happy to try to answer or give my opinion
feel free to use email as well. "My user name here" AT gmail
since we first know each other from the fuji-x-forum, it's probably no surprise to you, rybolt, that I'm also a fuji user. I started with the fuji's a few years back and really quite enjoyed them. X100s, Xpro1, XT1, and a host of lenses. I really wanted to love the hybrid viewfinders, but what it boiled down for me was that there was no real confirmation of what they had focused on. I also didnt like the focus by wire. It was tolerable in EVF, especially on the XT1, but it wasnt what I would call "an enjoyable tactile experience". More of a means to an ends. Though I will say, I was never left wanting with the fuji lens quality.
What I learned in shooting the fuji's is just how important the photographic process is to me. While the results (a digital image, a print, a photo book, etc) are very nice and I enjoy them, the reason I shoot is to shoot, especially with the lack of a real darkroom side of the process. The fuji's just werent as enjoyable as they had once been for me, especially after the many firmware updates on the XT1. It just got too complicated, too many menus, too many options. I just wasnt willing to put in the time to learn it. And even if I was, there'd still be a bunch of layers of things that just "get in the way" between me and the scene\subject.
So I sold the XT1 and most of my lenses. I still have the x100s and xpro1 along with the 18/2, 35/1.4, 27/2.8, 60, and 8/2.8mk2, but I havent been using them at all. So I'm considering unloading everything, unless I go and convert the xpro1 to full IR.
Switching to the M system (240/246) for me has been a breath of fresh air. They've been freeing to me in that I can just shoot and not worry about what AF mode I have on or what film simulation or what DR setting or if I have the left or right eye detect on. What I've also discovered in this process, is that I've been shooting a lot more, more consistently, and I've been enjoying myself a lot more. All of this has resulted in what I feel is a positive feedback cycle in that I feel my photography has also improved since switching. I.e. my results improved without me really focusing on trying to do that.
Regarding the monochrom conversion from a color Fuji sensor or a color m240 sensor, really, it's about the same for me. Slight differences, but most of the same things apply. The large difference is that i no longer shoot jpg like I did on the fuji's 97% of the time. I've never tried jpg on the leica's to be honest, but mostly because on the 240 it struggles a bit with white balance and color and on the 246, well, it sort of defeats the purpose of this camera to shoot only in jpg. I will say though, I used to do the same fuji jpeg to SEP2 process, and while I loved the results, i hated the workflow of needing 2 files and 2 programs. Since getting the leica's ive backed off a bit and developed a preset that mostly emulates what I want out of the SEP2 results. So now I also spend less time on the computer....though I could have done this with a fuji as well.
The results from all the cameras have been totally acceptable to me. The leicas are usually "better", but honestly, I'm not sure it's enough to get me to switch from the fuji if you asked me to blind choose based off image samples, perhaps with the exception of the 246 which is just a wonderful camera. I'll also say that I no longer even have to think about sharpening settings and x-trans detail issues (foiliage, high-iso smearing, plastic skin, etc), which while rarely an issue for me, did present itself on a handful of occasions. I will preface this with saying that I'm unusual in that I think most of these new cameras with more and more megapixels are of little interest to me. I feel either fuji or m has really obtained with 35mm film was about in providing "good enough" detail for enlargements in a portable size. While it falls short in DR it is way beyond in high iso. Maybe one day we can have it all on digital.
For your m9, I'd see if they would offer you an upgrade to an m9m or m246 if you are truly considering this camera as a b&w only camera. Though maybe you want the m9 for the colors people seem to love from the CCD, though honestly, David Farkas from reddotforum did a solid 3 part review of the color differences that showed it's possible to get pretty much an indistinguishable result from the m240 with simple tweaks. And the 240 series is a nicer camera in actual use.
And last but not least, for a travel camera, it's a toss up in my opinion. I know you like to go on vacation with the sole purpose of shooting a lot and with a lot of varying focal lengths. In that respect, the leica is clearly inferior. It's heavier, inherently limited to prime or variable lenses, and focal lengths below about 90mm in practical use. The EVF attachment or using LV is clunky and not enjoyable, so I never use them. They're significantly more expensive if they are stolen, damaged, lost. It will take a bit of discipline I think to change what you bring.
On a recent trip of mine I brought both 240 and 246, but then only a 28 and 50 which lived on the cameras. I swapped them occasionally before going out for the day, but that was it. Kept things simple and in a small camera bag. I needed 2 filters which were the same diameter, so those could also live on the lenses if I needed them to, so as to avoid needing filter cases. The batteries lasted for days of shooting, not hours, so I needed fewer batteries and spent less time charging, except when I forgot to switch the camera off in my bag and it took 500 pictures of the inside of my bag. haha. When I traveled with fuji's, I bought like 4-5 batteries for each camera and on occasion went through a few in a day, and I dont really shoot that much. (maybe I avg about 100 a day?)
i should probably stop typing now before this gets too crazy
but if you have any other detailed questions i would be happy to try to answer or give my opinion
feel free to use email as well. "My user name here" AT gmail
rybolt
Well-known
Phil- Thank you very much for the data points. I'm at the section of my life where I want to enjoy photography and trying something different is part of that plan.
I only have two real concerns on the Leica and they are the two major differences between the Fuji.
First- I shoot Preview Exposure in Manual which requires an EVF.
Second- I love adapted lenses which requires a mirrorless camera.
The M9 would be a step toward a simpler process and I don't think that is a bad thing at all.
We do travel quite a bit and taking one more camera and a few extra lenses would not be a big burden to me.
Thanks again. That information was very helpful.
I only have two real concerns on the Leica and they are the two major differences between the Fuji.
First- I shoot Preview Exposure in Manual which requires an EVF.
Second- I love adapted lenses which requires a mirrorless camera.
The M9 would be a step toward a simpler process and I don't think that is a bad thing at all.
We do travel quite a bit and taking one more camera and a few extra lenses would not be a big burden to me.
Thanks again. That information was very helpful.
pechelman
resu deretsiger
Have you considered selling the m9 with the replaced sensor for an SL?
Though honestly, between an SL and XT2/Pro2, not sure that's really much of a change.
the m240 in lv / evf mode is just horrible imo. It works in a pinch, but it's so slow and has a huge lag between pressing the button, taking the picture, and then coming out of a blackout. Sometimes I feel like turning the camera on to shoot is just as fast.
glad it was a little helpful
always worried i ramble when i get typing long replies
Though honestly, between an SL and XT2/Pro2, not sure that's really much of a change.
the m240 in lv / evf mode is just horrible imo. It works in a pinch, but it's so slow and has a huge lag between pressing the button, taking the picture, and then coming out of a blackout. Sometimes I feel like turning the camera on to shoot is just as fast.
glad it was a little helpful
always worried i ramble when i get typing long replies
rybolt
Well-known
It was very helpful but I'm deep into Photographer's Math (AKA Musician's Math) on this.
If I have $500 in this kit and I can sell it for $3,000 I haven't really spent $500 but I've saved $2500 by keeping it!
If I go to another Leica body I really go down the rabbit hole!
If I have $500 in this kit and I can sell it for $3,000 I haven't really spent $500 but I've saved $2500 by keeping it!
If I go to another Leica body I really go down the rabbit hole!
f16sunshine
Moderator
I would keep it Paul....at least for a season or two. See what you do with it.
As a 50mm user myself, my only regret of the fuji system is the crop of my favorite RF lens(s).
I would rather an M240 but the M9 would do especially if you are not over-invested in it.
I doubt you would lose much if any value using it for a couple thousand frames after it returns with new sensor.
If the current wait estimates for sensor replacement are true. It will almost be spring when it returns.... perfect timing!
Test the water.
As a 50mm user myself, my only regret of the fuji system is the crop of my favorite RF lens(s).
I would rather an M240 but the M9 would do especially if you are not over-invested in it.
I doubt you would lose much if any value using it for a couple thousand frames after it returns with new sensor.
If the current wait estimates for sensor replacement are true. It will almost be spring when it returns.... perfect timing!
Test the water.
maggieo
More Deadly
For $500, you've scored the bargain of the century!
I adore my M9-P and see no need to "upgrade" what is a very, very good camera in both color and B&W. (I use Nik software to convert .DNG to .TIFF files and only convert to .JPG when uploading to the web.)
I adore my M9-P and see no need to "upgrade" what is a very, very good camera in both color and B&W. (I use Nik software to convert .DNG to .TIFF files and only convert to .JPG when uploading to the web.)
ktmrider
Well-known
Have an M9 which I see no reason to upgrade. I use my M2/5 more and can turn them into a monochrome body any time I want. If you don't need higher ISO, the M9 just out and out works, especially the color rendition.
rybolt
Well-known
I emailed Leica Customer Service today and got a message back from Roxanna that sensor replacements were currently taking 8 weeks. They've had my camera in house for two weeks and it isn't logged into their system yet.
So I have a little time to make a decision on this mess. The camera has fewer than 4,800 actuations. My inclination is to keep it and use it. The two Biogons and the 90 will always have some value even if the body drops to nothing.
So I have a little time to make a decision on this mess. The camera has fewer than 4,800 actuations. My inclination is to keep it and use it. The two Biogons and the 90 will always have some value even if the body drops to nothing.
gunston
Established
a lot fuji user commented fuji is the best, and lot of them start switching to more soulful Leica camera even it may not be the in electronic compartment.
interesting !
interesting !
mcfingon
Western Australia
I don't have the Fuji/Leica M9 mix, but do have a Sony A7/Leica M2 mix. If you enjoy the feel of moving a real lens focusing system yourself, then the Leica will be the more rewarding. I have seen lovely B&W conversions from the M9.
sebastel
coarse art umbrascriptor
keep. at least for some time until you see whether you prefer one system - but even then, you'll keep the fuji anyway
if you find you dislike the M9, you can still sell it.
i like both fuji X (here it's an X-T1) and leica M systems. the only non-problem (non-problem: a problem that actually isn't one) is that i can only use one camera at the same time.
relax!
cheers,
sebastian
if you find you dislike the M9, you can still sell it.
i like both fuji X (here it's an X-T1) and leica M systems. the only non-problem (non-problem: a problem that actually isn't one) is that i can only use one camera at the same time.
relax!
cheers,
sebastian
rybolt
Well-known
Thanks for all of the comments and advice. I can wait a few months for the camera to be returned and even though it won't be the best time of year to test it I can see how I do.
I don't intend to compare the M9 to the Fuji as they are two very different systems. I've been a Leica user since 1967 so I'm comfortable with the rangefinder and the handling. I want the shooting experience with the camera to be more like using the M film cameras and that will be the key to whether I keep it. The only thing that I need to decide now is whether to order the Voigtlander 21/25 finder to go with the Zeiss lenses. Even if I decide to sell the system later having the finder will be a plus.
Thanks again-Paul
I don't intend to compare the M9 to the Fuji as they are two very different systems. I've been a Leica user since 1967 so I'm comfortable with the rangefinder and the handling. I want the shooting experience with the camera to be more like using the M film cameras and that will be the key to whether I keep it. The only thing that I need to decide now is whether to order the Voigtlander 21/25 finder to go with the Zeiss lenses. Even if I decide to sell the system later having the finder will be a plus.
Thanks again-Paul