bean_counter
Well-known
You expected something else on a thread entitled "skuttle butt"??
Have fun, it's Friday
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
They can't change the registration distance--then the new camera would need an entirely new lens line. They have to have solved the light-fall-off problem some new way...I'm very curious to see what Kodak and Leica have cooked up here.
squirrel$$$bandit
Veteran
Most certainly, when he says things I want to hear!
JohnL
Very confused
To misquote Forrest Gump ... "Falloff happens".
DougFord
on the good foot
[FONT="]FFM9? Is it possible or not? It can’t be done, some posit, sighting ‘the laws of physics’.[/FONT]
[FONT="]O.K. so it can’t be done. [/FONT]
[FONT="]The rumored M9 is supposedly bigger than the M8. Perhaps the new M9 will accommodate legacy m-mount lenses (all existing m-mount lenses) and provide a 1.3 crop image, just like the M8. The NEW (modified) m-mount lens line-up, purposely built for the FFM9 (not legacy compatible), will cause the sensor to reposition itself slightly further back from the mounting flange to resolve the ‘angle of light’ issues.[/FONT]
[FONT="]This resolution to the problem would be a kludge for sure. So if the rumored FFM9 is more than just vaporware, than perhaps they have indeed solved the short register issues.[/FONT]
[FONT="]O.K. so it can’t be done. [/FONT]
[FONT="]The rumored M9 is supposedly bigger than the M8. Perhaps the new M9 will accommodate legacy m-mount lenses (all existing m-mount lenses) and provide a 1.3 crop image, just like the M8. The NEW (modified) m-mount lens line-up, purposely built for the FFM9 (not legacy compatible), will cause the sensor to reposition itself slightly further back from the mounting flange to resolve the ‘angle of light’ issues.[/FONT]
[FONT="]This resolution to the problem would be a kludge for sure. So if the rumored FFM9 is more than just vaporware, than perhaps they have indeed solved the short register issues.[/FONT]
Paul T.
Veteran
The simpler solution would be to launch a FF camera, accompanied by some new, retrofocus WA lenses, designed for the camera.
The user then can either either fork out $$$, or put up with software correction for their existing wide angles.
The user then can either either fork out $$$, or put up with software correction for their existing wide angles.
Olsen
Well-known
If Leica has come up with a high ISO performing, no IR/UV filter needed, Full Frame M-rangefinder, it sounds all too good to be true. What's the downside this time? - Except for the price.
swoop
Well-known
If it's larger than the M8 there's no way I'm buying it. I'll hold on to my M8 or maybe even grab a second one. But the M8 is fat enough as it is.
swoop
Well-known
The IR thing doesn't bother me anymore since I've already purchased filters for all my lenses. In fact it would kind of piss me off because I already bought all of the filters.
Full frame I can take it or leave it. I've already learned to adjust.
But I would kill for high ISO quality.
ferider
Veteran
I've said it before: use a high ISO FF sensor and loose a few bits (4-6?) to correct for vignetting in software/firmware.
So forget high ISO a la Nikon, at least for wide angles. But FF is no problem.
Let's see what they come out with
Roland.
So forget high ISO a la Nikon, at least for wide angles. But FF is no problem.
Let's see what they come out with
Roland.
b.espahbod
Optophile
does anyone know who provided the sensor??? any rumors???
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Well isn't it obvious ... ?
The lens mount will indeed have to be further away from the sensor but Leica will be offering special optical filters to compensate for this slight miscalculation and return the registration distance back to normal. Of course you won't find out about this until after you've bought the camera and discover you can't focus it correctly with any M lens.
But no problem ... provide them with your camera's serial number and they'll pop a couple of freebie filters in the mail for you ... problem solved!
:angel::angel::angel:
David_Manning
Well-known
Jaap,
Thanks for peeking at my site.
You're absolutely right...there will always be a market, albeit smaller(er), for a camera like an M9. IMO, they're spending an enormous amount of money and time chasing other high-ISO digital cameras with modern features. If Leica wants to make a game-changing low-light camera, I'd think they'd update the whole camera body and include modern features. Otherwise, once again (and this I'm sure is still being debated), a new M9 won't be truly functional...it'll just look and shoot like an older camera.
As far as resale value, Leica will always retain more than any other brand. That being said, my D2X was new in 2005 and sold for one fifth the price of a new one after four years. The M8 is commanding half it's new price...but when did it hit the streets? I wonder who will want one when it is four years old, and the M9 (or even rumor of an M10) hits the streets. My point is, a digital camera body is always going to be like computers...ancient in digital camera years in a short amount of time.
Which is why I made my original point...want a camera for a lifetime? Buy a Leica film body. Want the hottest camera out, for the next two years? Buy a digital body!
BTW...thanks for letting me hang out in the rarified air of Leica shooters. I'm enjoying myself already, and haven't even received the M6 body I bought last week!
----David
www.davidmanningimages.com
Thanks for peeking at my site.
You're absolutely right...there will always be a market, albeit smaller(er), for a camera like an M9. IMO, they're spending an enormous amount of money and time chasing other high-ISO digital cameras with modern features. If Leica wants to make a game-changing low-light camera, I'd think they'd update the whole camera body and include modern features. Otherwise, once again (and this I'm sure is still being debated), a new M9 won't be truly functional...it'll just look and shoot like an older camera.
As far as resale value, Leica will always retain more than any other brand. That being said, my D2X was new in 2005 and sold for one fifth the price of a new one after four years. The M8 is commanding half it's new price...but when did it hit the streets? I wonder who will want one when it is four years old, and the M9 (or even rumor of an M10) hits the streets. My point is, a digital camera body is always going to be like computers...ancient in digital camera years in a short amount of time.
Which is why I made my original point...want a camera for a lifetime? Buy a Leica film body. Want the hottest camera out, for the next two years? Buy a digital body!
BTW...thanks for letting me hang out in the rarified air of Leica shooters. I'm enjoying myself already, and haven't even received the M6 body I bought last week!
----David
www.davidmanningimages.com
DougFord
on the good foot
[FONT="]The compromises; a bigger camera with extensive on-board processing of the image file to ‘make it work’.[/FONT]
[FONT="]A year from now will people be looking to buy old M8’s because the ‘character’ of the images it produces haven’t been neutered by all of the on-board processing like those of the M9? [/FONT]
[FONT="]Leica is desperate to release a FF digi-m. Here’s hoping that they’ve made the right compromises. [/FONT]
eleskin
Well-known
Digital M5? YES!!!!!!!! Leica will have a winner soon!!!!
Digital M5? YES!!!!!!!! Leica will have a winner soon!!!!
I have an M8, M6, and an M4-2. when I was in graduate school at Pratt Institute My professors (Phil Perkis) favorite camera was the M5. He lent it to me in exchange for my then new M6. I loved the metering window on the camera. The size really did not bother me. In fact, it was easier to grip and hold, and still had the "M" feel. If what we hear is true, it is not a bad thing at all. In fact, it means Leica did not constrain itself to how the camera looks but rather concentrated on its function. Combine this with Leica's traditional minimalist philosophy (conventional layout - shutter speed dials on top of the camera body, etc,,) and the promise of high full frame resolution combined with great high ISO performance and some of the worlds best (and compact in size) optics, and you will have an award winning camera that American Photo, Shutterbug, etc,, will all rave about. This will be fantastic news for Leica and will ensure its survival in the 21st Century. For all the nay sayers on the M8, I just read the review Getty Images had for the M8 and it was a powerful endorsement of what they considered a very fine photographic tool worthy of the files they expect. So here we will have the S2, the M9, and maybe a mechanical M for those who want it. Leica will concentrate on these "essentials" and i predict will be very successful. It will also mean all of our M lenses will hold their value for many many years!!!
Digital M5? YES!!!!!!!! Leica will have a winner soon!!!!
I have an M8, M6, and an M4-2. when I was in graduate school at Pratt Institute My professors (Phil Perkis) favorite camera was the M5. He lent it to me in exchange for my then new M6. I loved the metering window on the camera. The size really did not bother me. In fact, it was easier to grip and hold, and still had the "M" feel. If what we hear is true, it is not a bad thing at all. In fact, it means Leica did not constrain itself to how the camera looks but rather concentrated on its function. Combine this with Leica's traditional minimalist philosophy (conventional layout - shutter speed dials on top of the camera body, etc,,) and the promise of high full frame resolution combined with great high ISO performance and some of the worlds best (and compact in size) optics, and you will have an award winning camera that American Photo, Shutterbug, etc,, will all rave about. This will be fantastic news for Leica and will ensure its survival in the 21st Century. For all the nay sayers on the M8, I just read the review Getty Images had for the M8 and it was a powerful endorsement of what they considered a very fine photographic tool worthy of the files they expect. So here we will have the S2, the M9, and maybe a mechanical M for those who want it. Leica will concentrate on these "essentials" and i predict will be very successful. It will also mean all of our M lenses will hold their value for many many years!!!
Wiyum
Established
I'm willing to bet that the release of the m9 will come with price drops in the m8 and m8.2, and likely a cancellation of the m8 standard model (the discounted m8s being available until they're gone). I imagine secondhand prices will also fall on both m8 models. All of this would be good for Leica, as they'll be able to bring more people to the brand without sacrificing the brand's reputation for high quality at a high cost. Newcomers would essentially have 4 options and pricepoints: a used m8, a used m8.2, a new m8.2, and an m9. If that bottom end used m8 hits $2000 or less, many could be persuaded into the Leica fold, myself included.
John Camp
Well-known
I doubt that it'll be bigger -- the M8 was something like two mm's thicker than an M3, and half the new owners had a cow. I'm sure Leica noticed.
Besides, there's room -- the M8's electronics are a kludge; if they cleaned it up with proper boards, there'd be even more space. If they got rid of the silly pop-off bottom plate, there'd be even more.
I suspect it'll be very close in size to the M8, or even slimmer. I kind of like the 1.3x factor, because it makes the Nocti into a nice portrait lens, but many people will be disappointed if it's not FF. If it is FF, I'd bet a large majority of current M8 owners would buy an M9. If it's not FF, then I don't think there'd be so much movement. It has to be a major upgrade, for the kind of money they'll be asking. I'd like focus confirm (not auto-focus), IS, dust removal, D3-level ISO, and FF. I'd also like a date with Scarlet Johansson.
JC
jarski
Veteran
Leica has quite a potential in their reach IMHO. perhaps it wasnt bad idea to keep M-system alive after all, during decades when SLR's were only game in town.
they dont have to stick with rangefinders that are quite limited market. think of full frame EVF body, with new autofocus M-lenses. what else is missing besides money, after M9 comes out. but, do they have courage and funding to jump this far ?
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Guys, the odds of Leica changing the flange focal distance are close to zero.
The only change they could make is to reduce the distance, because an adopter could extend it out again to where it needs to be for M compatibility. But it would make little sense to reduce the distance, since it is already very narrow and that is the root cause of all their problems.
What we may see is a FF camera, with new lenses that have been designed to make sure that the rays exit at a steeper angle or close to perpendicular to the sensor. Olympus already does this for some of their glass.
I would assume that legacy glass would work in a x1.33 crop mode and some may even work in FF.
But who knows, they may have solved the sensor problem without any of this. Three years is a long time in the sensor business.
The only change they could make is to reduce the distance, because an adopter could extend it out again to where it needs to be for M compatibility. But it would make little sense to reduce the distance, since it is already very narrow and that is the root cause of all their problems.
What we may see is a FF camera, with new lenses that have been designed to make sure that the rays exit at a steeper angle or close to perpendicular to the sensor. Olympus already does this for some of their glass.
I would assume that legacy glass would work in a x1.33 crop mode and some may even work in FF.
But who knows, they may have solved the sensor problem without any of this. Three years is a long time in the sensor business.
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