M9, sealed or handled?

[swoop]

That was a pretty unpleasant thing to do, wasn't it? You wasted the time (and money) of two stores, who let customers examine the goods, then bought somewhere else. How long will those two stores stay in business with 'customers' like you? And why should they bother?

R.

I thought about that. But selling a demo model as new is just unsettling.

 

[Roger Hicks]

I thought about that. But selling a demo model as new is just unsettling.

Were they not willing to order a new one for you? I bet they'd be delighted, rather than lose a sale.

Cheers,

R.

 

[JohnTF]

Worst Case -- I used to work in an electronics store, the manager used to restock items that had been returned, or on display for months. They went so far as to have a machine that reinserted the large staples in the same holes that held the original ones.

I also worked at a camera shop that sold TV's in one department, big wood cabinets. They would deliver and set up a TV, the set required a burn in of the tube before it could accurately be set up and properly adjusted for color, yet some people asked for, and received items delivered in the box.

Items off the floor used for demonstration, were floor models, and sold accordingly.

Demo camera items which I have bought on occasion, were clearly marked Demo with a sticker on the box, though some were unopened, just an extra reduction in price.

I know Leica provides demo cameras at reduced wholesale price, so that price should be passed along.

I just saw one on ebay in Japan for $7500, free shipping, sealed new in box.

I also know it is easier to realize a good sales price for a used item if you have the original box.

Regards, John

 

[Ben Z]

That was a pretty unpleasant thing to do, wasn't it? You wasted the time (and money) of two stores, who let customers examine the goods, then bought somewhere else. How long will those two stores stay in business with 'customers' like you? And why should they bother?

R.

There used to be a very nice camera store about a mile from my home that was an official Leica dealership. In fact the father at one time worked for Leica USA in an administrative position. When the M7 first came out, they got a couple of them in, and I asked if I could see one. The owner declined, saying that if he opened the box for me and I didn't buy it, none of his usual Leica customers would buy it, and he'd end up having to put it out as a display model and sell it later as a demo. He said if it was a Nikon (they weren't a Canon dealer at the time) he'd have no problem showing it to me.

Even a brand-new Rolls Royce isn't going to come with 0 miles on it, sealed. Someone has to drive it on and off the truck, in and out of dealer prep, etc.

OTOH a Leica that has been part of the rep's Leica-Day outfit, or been kept on the dealer's shelf for everyone to handle who asks, is a demo and shouldn't be sold as new.

BTW that camera store did close down, but Leicas didn't have anything to do with it. In fact the owner once told me that Leica was one of the few companies who prohibited big-volume dealers from publishing prices lower than MAP.

 

[JNewell]

You wasted the time (and money) of two stores, who let customers examine the goods, then bought somewhere else. How long will those two stores stay in business with 'customers' like you?

The answer is (and we all know it, because we see it all around us): not very much longer. Soon you'll only be able to buy from Adorama, B&H and a few others. Oh, did I mention - buying goods sight unseen?

 

[swoop]

The answer is (and we all know it, because we see it all around us): not very much longer. Soon you'll only be able to buy from Adorama, B&H and a few others. Oh, did I mention - buying goods sight unseen?

I used to feel bad about that and supported one of my local camera shops. Berger Bros out in Long Island. Until one day I realized that a Lowepro camera bag I bought from them was priced $30 higher than at B&H or Adorama. I could deal with being charged a little more from a local retailer. But $30 I feel qualifies as a ripoff..

I did buy a tripod from the local shop in Milwaukee, WI. Mike Crivello's. And while it was more expensive than getting it from B&H or Adorama. It wasn't obscenely so. And the salesman was very helpful. Unlike the majority of local camera shops I've visited where they really aren't very knowledgeable about much.

I fully intend on getting my M9 from Photovillage. Although I'm sure the order wait will be longer than if I ordered from one of the bigger retailers. I like that place because they're extremely helpful and friendly.

 

[Al Kaplan]

It does make you wonder about other things, though. Do these Leica fondlers act the same way with their women? Didn't they want to feel and try out as many as they could when they were younger? Did they expect to go to the motel on their wedding night and find the cellophane still intact?

 

[uhligfd]

I love that answer, AL K.!

 

[Ben Z]

The answer is (and we all know it, because we see it all around us): not very much longer. Soon you'll only be able to buy from Adorama, B&H and a few others. Oh, did I mention - buying goods sight unseen?

It's a sad consequence, I agree, but I don't think that the customer should be blamed. My only obligation is to "support" myself and my family. In that regard, if I can buy the exact item for 30% less from one source than another, that's where I'm going to buy. I too have to deal with competition. The idea that your customers/clients/patients owe you their loyalty is absurd. A lot of the small-time, mom-and-pop camera store owners stubbornly refused to make a paradigm shift, and it cost them their businesses.

 

[JNewell]

It's a sad consequence, I agree, but I don't think that the customer should be blamed. My only obligation is to "support" myself and my family. In that regard, if I can buy the exact item for 30% less from one source than another, that's where I'm going to buy. I too have to deal with competition. The idea that your customers/clients/patients owe you their loyalty is absurd. A lot of the small-time, mom-and-pop camera store owners stubbornly refused to make a paradigm shift, and it cost them their businesses.

Fair points, certainly - two notes, though.

First, in some cases places like B&H are able to sell things at prices that are lower than what the local dealer pays for the same thing. When that happens, there's not much to do.

Second, even apart from that, I'm not sure there's much to do about any of this. There is nothing in history that suggests that we should expect things not to change. As you say, there is a paradigm shift, and some businesses are not going to survive. Some methods of doing business will not survive. We (all) will lose some things and gain others. The world goes 'round...

 

[Roger Hicks]

It's a sad consequence, I agree, but I don't think that the customer should be blamed. My only obligation is to "support" myself and my family. In that regard, if I can buy the exact item for 30% less from one source than another, that's where I'm going to buy. I too have to deal with competition. The idea that your customers/clients/patients owe you their loyalty is absurd. A lot of the small-time, mom-and-pop camera store owners stubbornly refused to make a paradigm shift, and it cost them their businesses.

The idea there is no loyalty, no trust, in any relationship, even a business relationship,is far more absurd. And frightening.

If that is your paradigm shift, you are welcome to it.

Tashi delek,

R,

 

[bo_lorentzen]

Al K.

LOL.. I was just thinking about the survey one teacher did in high-school.

1. how many want their bride to be virgin. (male and female)

2. how many have any "experience" (male and female)

Conclusion, stop fooling yourself.

Conclution 2, decades later, those with experience is a hell of a lot more fun.

Conclusion 3, by the time Im done with a camera, normally the paint is at best a bit worn, I will take a opened box as long as its not dinged.

That said - There are guys who will use the camera lightly with great care, love and concern for the cameras apearence, tape the corner to prevent scratches etc, and who are concerned about the collecting value, in that case I can see a good reason to request a un-opened box.

Bo

www.bophoto.typepad.com

 

[Ben Z]

The idea there is no loyalty, no trust, in any relationship, even a business relationship,is far more absurd. And frightening.

I agree with you, except that's not even remotely what I suggested:

"The idea that your customers/clients/patients OWE you their loyalty is absurd."

Tony Rose (popflash) is 2500 miles away, but his service is 10X better than the [now defunct] camera stores that were within a half hour's drive. He offers personal service and is price-competitive. And guess what? He's a solo entrepreneur! How does he do it? Well, for one thing he uses the mail-order/internet-sales model to sell in volume far beyond what he could do sitting in a brick-and-mortar store waiting for local people to walk in the door, meanwhile paying $35/sq-ft for zoned-retail space.

That's what I meant by a paradigm shift. In business the only thing you get by standing still is broke.

PS I only singled Tony out as an example. I'm not on his payroll 😀

 

[zeezea]

A question of value

A question of value

When you buy a rare instrument such as an M9, do you accept it handled and reboxed or do you insist on a sealed box and eventualy check the contents infront of the shopkeeper? Perhaps Leica boxes don't come sealed. Would you expect to pay less for a camera that has been on demo for a week or so?

It does make you wonder about other things, though. Do these Leica fondlers act the same way with their women? Didn't they want to feel and try out as many as they could when they were younger? Did they expect to go to the motel on their wedding night and find the cellophane still intact?

Al K.

LOL.. I was just thinking about the survey one teacher did in high-school.

1. how many want their bride to be virgin. (male and female)

2. how many have any "experience" (male and female)

Conclusion, stop fooling yourself.

Conclution 2, decades later, those with experience is a hell of a lot more fun.

Conclusion 3, by the time Im done with a camera, normally the paint is at best a bit worn, I will take a opened box as long as its not dinged.

That said - There are guys who will use the camera lightly with great care, love and concern for the cameras apearence, tape the corner to prevent scratches etc, and who are concerned about the collecting value, in that case I can see a good reason to request a un-opened box.

Bo

www.bophoto.typepad.com

Ha ha ha. We sure have come long way on this thread. From the OP`s (partial) query concerning a discount price on a demo model, to
virginity/experience preferences and cellophane wrappers. :angel:

It brings to mind a joke`s punchline I once heard:

"Madam, I already know what you are - I`m just negotiating price". 😱 😱

Sorry `bout that, the devil made me do it.
Al

 

[Roger Hicks]

I agree with you, except that's not even remotely what I suggested:

"The idea that your customers/clients/patients OWE you their loyalty is absurd."

Sorry. I misunderstood. But I think they do owe you something if you are running a camera store and have bought a camera and made it available for your customers to play with. For them then to go and buy it somewhere else because it is 30% cheaper is a betrayal of trust.

Cheers,

Roger

 

[Ben Z]

Sorry. I misunderstood. But I think they do owe you something if you are running a camera store and have bought a camera and made it available for your customers to play with. For them then to go and buy it somewhere else because it is 30% cheaper is a betrayal of trust.

Cheers,

Roger

I see your point, and in fact when I there was a camera store nearby I bought tons of stuff from them...mostly used equipment (which was always priced very competitively, and which the owner told me he made higher profits on than the new stuff), and smaller accessories where that 30% difference, plus in-state sales tax, was offset by the cost of shipping from outstate. Plus back in the film days I gave them all my color processing. And I did buy several new cameras from them over the years, including a Nikon F5 and my first Canon 20D, which were so new at the time nobody anywhere was discounting them. Believe me they got their money's worth from letting me handle a camera or lens here and there that I eventually bought 30% less elsewhere.

 

[Ronald M]

If it is opened, it is a demo or used and should be priced appropiately.

 

[jlancasterd]

Yes, the M9 comes in an sealed plain outer box.

Mine certainly came with in a sealed plain cardboard outer box around the normal Leica box, and the shop deliberately left it for me to open it.

Inside was a note asking the retailer to ensure that he loaded the latest software before selling it to a customer(!). It came with the pre-launch version of the software (0.988?) - I loaded 1.002 once I'd got it home.

 

[Jamie123]

Sealed. You don't want that new camera covered in swine flu 😉

 

[JohnTF]

The answer is (and we all know it, because we see it all around us): not very much longer. Soon you'll only be able to buy from Adorama, B&H and a few others. Oh, did I mention - buying goods sight unseen?

My local shop no longer has good used equipment for me, it is all on ebay now. For a long time it was otherwise, to the point that he would call me with a trade in, or just ship it to me and send the bill later. They are quite honest about it, their market is global, the lab is very slow, am thinking they will be basically name only in a few years.

I did tell him that if there is nothing to look at in the store, his local customers might stay home, perhaps they are on line?

The other local store can be very parochial in their treatment of clients, which is silly, but they are what they are. If they know you and like you, they cannot do enough for you. Everyone else is just a distraction to their boredom.

I think there is still one real hardware store left, stuff is more expensive, but they have what you need, and know where it is.

Regards, John