M9 Sensor Qualities

[rogazilla]

As for Model T... I have a feeling is that they sourced the sensor from sony. They are banking on the new generation that love those touch screens. Might appeal to the iphone generation and I can see it fits the marketing scheme as a jewelry or fashion item (granted I have not touch one or see one in real life).

Is it the best engineering effort from Leica? Does it matter if it sells and make tons of profit for them? Is the people who are serious about taking photos their targeted buyers? Personally, I will not buy one because it is not a tool that I care for. But I don't fault a company develop a product to service a different demographic of consumers. This camera might just be an upgrade from their Iphone camera and looks pretty enough to sit next to their iphone on the dining table.

As I see the technology moving forward, this might be a necessary step for Leica as the market for M digital might shrink as the next generation comes into their 20's 30's and are more custom to a touch screen and have the computer to do most of the thinking for them. (Sony Nex's defocus anyone?)

It might be a necessary step for Leica to reposition themselves because Sony has now put a FF sensor in a mirrorless body and might just be a matter of time before others begin to do so and they don't see that they could compete and put the best sensor possible in their M body?

I applaud Fuji as they continue to update their firmware and tweak their older product at no cost to their consumers. They are winning over a lot of people who took the chance with them. Like you said, they have a very well executed plan on body and lenses and with the limited resources they have, they have done very well. Maybe they will come up with the next generation of hybrid view finder and become who Leica was?

 

[semilog]

Not sure what to do about processing software since I'm PC, not Mac, and the better x-trans RAW converters are Mac-only.

Sorry to go OT but ACR does a fine job and Capture One does a fantastic job. Both are cross-platform. Note that both require slightly different noise and sharpening tweaks than with Beyer sensors. For low light, the latest generation of Sony Sensors is now a bit better than the XTRANS (which itself appears to be a Sony sensor with a different color array filter).

 

[MCTuomey]

Sorry to go OT but ACR does a fine job and Capture One does a fantastic job. Both are cross-platform. Note that both require slightly different noise and sharpening tweaks than with Beyer sensors. For low light, the latest generation of Sony Sensors is now a bit better than the XTRANS (which itself appears to be a Sony sensor with a different color array filter).

Thanks! Since this is OT, i'll pm you if that's ok re converters.

 

[pieter]

As a digital Leica user I find the lack of competition in the digital rangefinder market quite irritating because I hope that it could be done cheaper. I'm hoping competition would help Leica work harder for the insane amounts of money I have given them.

That said, I grow tired of all this theoretical dreaming about some brand making a digital full frame rangefinder camera that can take M lenses for a fraction of the money.

Yeah of course Sony can put all its R&D resources and they can make a monochrom rangefinder camera that could give even the Leica Monochrom a run for it's money... But they haven't. And until they do Leica gets my money no matter how much it irritates people that Leica makes money from schmucks like me.
Yeah sure, Cosina en Zeiss could try... invest practically all their money on this one shot to make a proper digital rangefinder body, with the possibility of having to close completely if they find out the niche market is too niche. (Exactly how many digital camera's do Cosina and Zeiss make at the moment btw? What makes you think the rangefindermarket would a make a good place to start?)
Yeah sure, Fuji could make it. But why would they? They have their own market. Why would they make a rangefinder camera so that everybody can buy Leica, Zeiss or Voigtlander lenses for it? (only Sony is that desperate for market share that they try everything.)

Show me a digital rangefinder camera that is better than the M240, the Monochrom, the M9 or the M8. Oh you can only dream and fantasize about one? I'm not going to pay half, a third or even a tenth of what I'm paying Leica for anybody's wishful thinking. Until this mythical Leica M rangefinder beater hits the store near me... who cares about your fantasy camera? Who cares if there are full frame sensors that are 10% or maybe even 20% better, if they just don't give it a rangefinder?

All I hear is a lot of wishful thinking... Wishes that I might even share, but which I chose not to indulge in as it really is kinda pointless...

 

[rogazilla]

For me the range finder form factor does not have to be hinged to a M mount. if Sony makes one with their FE mount, as long as they produce glasses like the new Zeiss 55 1.8, I will be happy with it.

Fuji's recent glasses and the one I have on my X100 has been great too.

Is that wishful thinking? I think Fuji's X100(s) has been very close...

I think manual focus and such is probably dying art but I think there is a lot of improvement to come to the EVF/OVF implementation. to think that 4K is not even possible to display the 24mp picture we are taking... EVF has some way to go.

 

[x-ray]

I still believe modern Leica is just a premium/luxury brand. At least, that's how I felt when I decided to get a M9P in 2013, knowing there's tons of cameras out there that offer more image "quality".

A $10 Casio probably tells time better than a $10,000 Rolex. Which one would you go for?

My $39 timex keeps better time than my Roles. I sold the Rolex two weeks ago.

Want to by my M9?

 

[Duane Pandorf]

An "insider's" view of the M9 sensor and it's capabilities:

 

[semilog]

+1 to *hepcat* and *rogazilla* That's what's needed - real competition within the digital RF segment. None of what the OP and *semilog* argue for w/r/t sensors matters much if what the buyer wants is what only Leica provides today: digital capture with true rangefinder haptics and problem-free use of the full range of M-glass.

I doubt that ANYONE on this thread would disagree with that statement. (OK, prove me wrong, someone!)

 

[semilog]

Yeah of course Sony can put all its R&D resources and they can make a monochrom rangefinder camera that could give even the Leica Monochrom a run for it's money... But they haven't.

Sony or Canon or Panasonic could easily put one of their cheapest CMOS sensors into a FF — or even APS-C — camera and absolutely crush both sensitivity and the DR of the Monochrom. The (monochrome!) scientific sensor comparison that I posted upthread shows that to be the case.

Even a monochrome micro 4/3 sensor should equal the M-Monochrom's sensitivity but with considerably (say, two stops) better DR.

I really wish Sony, or Fuji, or Canon, or Nikon, or Panasonic, or Olympus would get on that. Pronto.

I'd buy an EM-1 or X-T1 or A6000 "Monochom" in a flat second. No hesitation at all.

A niche market but an easy pickup that would buy immense gratitude from customers.

Are you listening, Fuji? Are you listening, Olympus? Are you listening, Sony?

 

[Kwesi]

Sony or Canon or Panasonic could easily put one of their cheapest CMOS sensors into a FF — or even APS-C — camera and absolutely crush both sensitivity and the DR of the Monochrom. The (monochrome!) scientific sensor comparison that I posted upthread shows that to be the case.

Even a monochrome micro 4/3 sensor should equal the M-Monochrom's sensitivity but with considerably (say, two stops) better DR.

I really wish Sony, or Fuji, or Canon, or Nikon, or Panasonic, or Olympus would get on that. Pronto.

I'd buy an EM-1 or X-T1 or A6000 "Monochom" in a flat second. No hesitation at all.

A niche market but an easy pickup that would buy immense gratitude from customers.

Are you listening, Fuji? Are you listening, Olympus? Are you listening, Sony?

Not going to happen.
The peanut gallery has spoken loudly and clearly. What it wants is a Swiss Army Knife "do everything " camera that is tiny, costs $1399 or under that they can fall in love with for 8 months or so until the next one shows up. The Fujis, Sonys, et al are busy serving it up with matching lens du jour.

 

[Aristophanes]

I think if you take off the Bayer array there may need to be a slight shim forward on an AF camera, so it's a modified assembly process adding cost. Then they'd have to test for focus accuracy and alignment. Then there's another software set-up to process in-camera, including for markets that don't have a lot of home PCs (Asia).

I actually think it is classy that Leica did the Monochrom to keep b/w as a unique attribute of photography and its heritage.

 

[Ranchu]

They might as well use cmos if it's just for black and white. lmao.

 

[pieter]

Sony or Canon or Panasonic could easily put one of their cheapest CMOS sensors into a FF — or even APS-C — camera and absolutely crush both sensitivity and the DR of the Monochrom. The (monochrome!) scientific sensor comparison that I posted upthread shows that to be the case.

Even a monochrome micro 4/3 sensor should equal the M-Monochrom's sensitivity but with considerably (say, two stops) better DR.

I really wish Sony, or Fuji, or Canon, or Nikon, or Panasonic, or Olympus would get on that. Pronto.

I'd buy an EM-1 or X-T1 or A6000 "Monochom" in a flat second. No hesitation at all.

A niche market but an easy pickup that would buy immense gratitude from customers.

Are you listening, Fuji? Are you listening, Olympus? Are you listening, Sony?

They're not listening. And until they are it's just a lot of "would", "should", "could" and "wish".

 

[hepcat]

rogazilla/Mike, sure, but Leica, in its niche market, didn't get much competion for the M6/M7/MP cameras. Zeiss stopped its ZI rangefinder initiative because they could not make a profit on it. Why would the situation be different with a digital rangefinder camera, considering that the Leica niche for this is also small?

MITCH ALLAND/Potomac, MD

Mitch, consider Cosina for a moment. They're already building M film cameras and have been quite successful at it. They also build M mount lenses and they're VERY successful at that. The price/performance ratio is amazing.

They've already produced the Epson RD-1, so they have expertise in digital. They have a long-base rangefinder body that they've already built, the ZI. Let's say they do their marketing surveys and find an immediate market for 10,000 Bessa RD digital M-mount bodies world wide, with a potential sales of 100,000 units over four years. Let's say they procure enough sensors, processors and related electronics in form factors that will let them use the front ZI shell for half the total planned production run. Let's say that they are really bright, anticipate what the research will do in two years, and assemble the electronic components in such a way that they'll be able to substitute a new and improved sensor, processor and related parts in two years with very little retooling and call it the Bessa RD2. Let's say that 40% of the parts are already being produced on the film production lines. Let's say that they net $100 USD per unit. Over the course of the production of 100,000 cameras, they'd stand to profit $10m. That's a bunch.

But now, lets say that their market research tells them that for every five bodies they sell, they'll also sell twelve lenses. Let's say they also net $100 per lens. You do the math. They've just made a very large fortune on their existing glass products without ANY further research or investment at all. Frankly if they could sell 12 lenses for every five bodies, it'd be worth it to them to sell the bodies at cost!

Of course, I'm pulling the numbers out of the air, but I'd guess that even at some percentage of those numbers there may be financial incentive enough to venture into that territory. The expense is in designing a FF sensor, and that's been done. Now that Sony has it, they'll be looking to license it further as well. That's just more sales for them, and an optical rangefinder camera wouldn't cut into their EVF cameras because they're largely different markets.

Just thinking aloud here...

 

[semilog]

They're not listening. And until they are it's just a lot of "would", "should", "could" and "wish".

Agreed. Although we only know that they haven't listened so far — not that they are not listening now.

Time will tell. Until then, I applaud Leica for releasing the Monochrom. It's the only digital M that I think is really compelling.

 

[Kwesi]

Mitch, consider Cosina for a moment. They're already building M film cameras and have been quite successful at it. They also build M mount lenses and they're VERY successful at that. The price/performance ratio is amazing.

They've already produced the Epson RD-1, so they have expertise in digital. They have a long-base rangefinder body that they've already built, the ZI. Let's say they do their marketing surveys and find an immediate market for 10,000 Bessa RD digital M-mount bodies world wide, with a potential sales of 100,000 units over four years. Let's say they procure enough sensors, processors and related electronics in form factors that will let them use the front ZI shell for half the total planned production run. Let's say that they are really bright, anticipate what the research will do in two years, and assemble the electronic components in such a way that they'll be able to substitute a new and improved sensor, processor and related parts in two years with very little retooling and call it the Bessa RD2. Let's say that 40% of the parts are already being produced on the film production lines. Let's say that they net $100 USD per unit. Over the course of the production of 100,000 cameras, they'd stand to profit $10m. That's a bunch.

But now, lets say that their market research tells them that for every five bodies they sell, they'll also sell twelve lenses. Let's say they also net $100 per lens. You do the math. They've just made a very large fortune on their existing glass products without ANY further research or investment at all. Frankly if they could sell 12 lenses for every five bodies, it'd be worth it to them to sell the bodies at cost!

Of course, I'm pulling the numbers out of the air, but I'd guess that even at some percentage of those numbers there may be financial incentive enough to venture into that territory. The expense is in designing a FF sensor, and that's been done. Now that Sony has it, they'll be looking to license it further as well. That's just more sales for them, and an optical rangefinder camera wouldn't cut into their EVF cameras because they're largely different markets.

Just thinking aloud here...

Hepcat,
I really like where you are going with this. I wonder if Cosina Voigtlander is running on the assumption that Leica is too formidable in a market that is already too small
The rangefinder body is so attuned the concept of "personal vision" it would be great if students could have access to a digital version from CV. It could easily become the Pentax K 1000 of its time.

 

[Doug]

Hepcat,
I really like where you are going with this. I wonder if Cosina Voigtlander is running on the assumption that Leica is too formidable in a market that is already too small
The rangefinder body is so attuned the concept of "personal vision" it would be great if students could have access to a digital version from CV. It could easily become the Pentax K 1000 of its time.

It seems from what we're told by those who have spoken personally with the President of Cosina, Mr. Kobayashi, that he likes and respects Leica and wishes not to attempt direct competition. Cosina has a history of manufacturing cameras and major camera parts for the common Japanese brands except Pentax, often the least expensive models.

Mr. Kobayashi is said to not want to get into the digital camera market, with obsolescence coming too quickly. Cosina is not known for electronic expertise. As we know, Epson and Cosina had a joint project for making the Epson RD1 digital RF. In this, Cosina only supplied the mechanical parts, while Epson handled the electronics and marketing. The project was successful in producing a good working camera, and a demonstration of feasibility. Having done that, Epson was satisfied not to pursue additional development, as I understand it.

Reluctant to get into the digital camera business themselves, I'd think Cosina would be considering the future of staying strictly with film cameras, while perhaps open to a similar Epson project with another partner.

 

[Scrambler]

It seems from what we're told by those who have spoken personally with the President of Cosina, Mr. Kobayashi, that he likes and respects Leica and wishes not to attempt direct competition. Cosina has a history of manufacturing cameras and major camera parts for the common Japanese brands except Pentax, often the least expensive models.

Mr. Kobayashi is said to not want to get into the digital camera market, with obsolescence coming too quickly. Cosina is not known for electronic expertise. As we know, Epson and Cosina had a joint project for making the Epson RD1 digital RF. In this, Cosina only supplied the mechanical parts, while Epson handled the electronics and marketing. The project was successful in producing a good working camera, and a demonstration of feasibility. Having done that, Epson was satisfied not to pursue additional development, as I understand it.

Reluctant to get into the digital camera business themselves, I'd think Cosina would be considering the future of staying strictly with film cameras, while perhaps open to a similar Epson project with another partner.

And who are the potential partners? Presumably those companies that have a heritage in rangefinders and are now in digital. Canon and Nikon obviously. Of those Nikon has produced film RFs recently but that seems, like the Epsons, to have been about demonstration of capacity rather than making money. Minolta and Konica had history, their camera divisions are now Sony, so strangely I would put Sony as the most likely to do it. Sony has also shown a desire to be seen as at the front of the game, but they have also avoided directly taking on entrenched product lines. IF Sony made a digital RF it would be full frame and radical, I.e. a digital rangefinder mechanism and switchable between RF focusing and AF. It would open up a new product segment, being both a successor to the Konica Hexar RF and in a sense to the Contax G. I don't see it happening anytime soon.

 

[mfunnell]

IF Sony made a digital RF it would be full frame and radical, I.e. a digital rangefinder mechanism and switchable between RF focusing and AF. It would open up a new product segment, being both a successor to the Konica Hexar RF and in a sense to the Contax G.

Two of my favourite cameras, for different reasons. And it would have a Sony sensor, which would make some people happy :angel:

I don't see it happening anytime soon.

Agreed. 🙁🙁