m9 the working mans version?

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Gabriel M.A. said:
It implies it and others have run with it. I addressed the thread in general, and still have.



It would be even more expensive. They are very @n@l-retentive, and every millimeter inside that body is precious. Adding seals would probably mean even tighter tolerances, some pretty innovative materials for sealing every nook and cranny. And for what? The main people who purchase these --and everybody knows it-- want them for the name, for its looks, not to take over to Antarctica or the Sahara. They are not aiming for the Indiana Jones of the Associated Press market; that market is pretty well served by Nikon and Canon, and they have a pretty good established line-up of different bodies and lenses to suit those needs.

Also, it wouldn't end there: you'd need an auto-cleaning sensor. The lenses you'd be putting in there also aren't exactly weather-rugged (as we all know, Nikon and Canon provide lenses which are rugged enough and which also minimize the blowing of air onto the sensor). The rangefinder is a fine (as in "delicate") piece which would not withstand the rigors of in-the-middle-of-the-action reporting bangs and abuses.

It just doesn't make sense to beat that dead horse to a pulp.
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"these are not intended as condemnations of anything. more questions about viability. if we could keep it on track(ish) that would be most appreciated.

no implications of $ issues, beyond my own affordability, was made in the original post Gabriel.

run with your line any way you wish.
 
GSNfan said:
But I assume you're also not going to rely on a single M9 for a month in Sahara, which means you have to carry at least two other bodies for back up and maybe a couple of P&S as well.

And in case those two back up bodies are also M9 then wouldn't that make you too rich to be a real PJ?
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i must ask though, how does whether or not i could afford multiple M9's relate to being a 'real" PJ?

personally i worked very hard in the first 20 years of my life. made wise choices and bought into a business that i then helped make viable. this made it possible for me to soldier through the hard first years of moving away from wire service. i had money. not a trust fund. either way i do consider myself a very real photographer.

the notion that you somehow have to suffer or eat ramen noodles every day to be legit is sour grapes.
 
Aside from dust and other reliability questions, how about operating temperatures in the Sahara?

It's obvious from a max-reliability issue, the answer is two film M's and b&w film (color will wilt in the heat).

Or a D700/D3 :)

BTW, I totally agree with the OP...Leica has evolved from a simple, reliable tool known for it's brilliant optics, to a dilletant's luxury item for fair-weather photography. I really love using my M6 and enjoy the unique look of the Tri-X film process, but when the going gets tough, I always reach for my Nikon.
 
emraphoto said:
i must ask though, how does whether or not i could afford multiple M9's relate to being a 'real" PJ?

personally i worked very hard in the first 20 years of my life. made wise choices and bought into a business that i then helped make viable. this made it possible for me to soldier through the hard first years of moving away from wire service. i had money. not a trust fund. either way i do consider myself a very real photographer.

the notion that you somehow have to suffer or eat ramen noodles every day to be legit is sour grapes.
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In case we were to consider PJ as more than a profession, more than something which is done for money, fame or adrenaline fix and more as a duty to inform the world, it also logically follows that gear, "the look" and any other nonsense which is associated for example with Leica cameras becomes secondary.
 
GSNfan said:
In case we were to consider PJ as more than a profession, more than something which is done for money, fame or adrenaline fix and more as a duty to inform the world, it also logically follows that gear, "the look" and any other nonsense which is associated for example with Leica cameras becomes secondary.
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Yes, and eating good food instead of ramen noodles is secondary too, so we might as well all eat ramen noodles.

The fact that you use the phrase 'and any other nonsense' rather suggests that you have your own agenda in this department.

Cheers,

R.
 
The cost of the system is still very relevant to the original question of cultivating PJ talent loyal to the brand. OK, let's say that Leica can pull off a ruggedized M9 at not much more $$$$ than the current model.

Sure, this would appeal to some PJ-s at the top that are hesitant today. Sure, mention of these hotshot photogs could be used by Leica marketing. But for the young up-and-coming shooters, the price of admission is still too great. The new talent would have to grow on DSLR-s, thus feeding money to Canon and Nikon in the process. Leica does not have an entry-level or even a prosumer model. The used film M market is quite irrelevant since Leica doesn't exactly profit from it.

Canon and Nikon have a good reason to flog their top professional users - they sell tons and tons of lower end cameras to hobbyists and wannabes that way (and then reap another pile of $$$ when they upgrade). They are not really marketing the top tier cameras. The 1D-s are halo products that sell a raft of Rebels.

Leica's current approach is essentially one-tier and they are much better off targeting the luxury crowd. Now, if they would work with some Japanese company to produce large quantities of a digital equivalent of the Leica CL, then...
 
emraphoto said:
i must ask though, how does whether or not i could afford multiple M9's relate to being a 'real" PJ?

personally i worked very hard in the first 20 years of my life. made wise choices and bought into a business that i then helped make viable. this made it possible for me to soldier through the hard first years of moving away from wire service. i had money. not a trust fund. either way i do consider myself a very real photographer.

the notion that you somehow have to suffer or eat ramen noodles every day to be legit is sour grapes.
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This reminds me of my favourite proverb, which I believe to be Spanish: "Take what you want, and pay for it, saieth the Lord."

An awful lot of people have said to me, over the years, "I wish I could live the way you do."

What they mean is that they'd like the good bits: the travel, the cameras, the freedom from 9-to-5.

They're not so keen on the idea of staying in a village with no toilets; eating out of cans; never having your clothes dry properly in the monsoons; waking up with one eye swollen shut and the other swollen half-shut from mosquito bites; having to bluff your way out of police interrogations when actually, you're not supposed to be there.

Oh, sure, they can imagine it as a holiday: "Yeah, I could stand all that, easily." What they can't usually imagine is living it, and funding everything you do BY everything you do, not by paying for it for a few weeks a year with the proceeds of a regular salary.

Cheers,

R.
 
Roger Hicks said:
Yes, and eating good food instead of ramen noodles is secondary too, so we might as well all eat ramen noodles.

The fact that you use the phrase 'and any other nonsense' rather suggests that you have your own agenda in this department.

Cheers,

R.
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But then again in ancient Greece the Spartans ate a black and nasty soup which horrified the rest of the Greeks yet they could beat any Greek army with fewer numbers and eventually defeated the well-fed and decadent Athenians in the Peloponnesian war.

A meager and spartan diet is almost universally associated with creative, strong and resilient people. The Samurai, the Jesuits, the Sadus and not to forget the starving artists.
 
I was seriously considering acquiring an M9 for work but after a couple of weeks with a loaner, it left me a bit disappointed. Briefly, the camera is touted by Leica as professional tool, presumably for discriminating photographers as well as professionals.

In my profession, hi iso is a 'must have', not a 'be nice to have'. No idea why this is a problem considering technology today. The Buffer. 8 frames. You will never spray and pray with a Leica but simply documenting things as they happen can eat up 8 frames quickly. Then you have to wait and hope nothing happens in the meantime. Also felt the awb wasn't entirely consistent in my experience.

When the M9/10/xx can satisfy these two basic requirements for me, then I'll revisit it and make a case to the bean counters. That and something a bit more affordable.
 
emraphoto said:
if i understand this comment correctly it speaks volumes. the name and mythology that has made the m system what it is seems to have taken a back seat to "luxury". in the long run will this sell more cameras than being known as a tough as nails, reliable reportage tool used by some of the greats of our times?

i don't know the answer but have my suspicions.
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There is a huge disconnect between people who see the old Leicas as the tool of choice for working with becuase of durability and quality and the people who see Leicas as luxury items due to the MP/M8/M9 series of cameras.

People seem to ... forgetting the years of use in journalism and reportage.
 
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ottluuk said:
I guess dust and weather sealing was much less of a concern with cameras that didn't rely on complex electronics and where you had to put a clean new sensor in after 36 shots...
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Isn't this the crux of the issue with the M9/M8 - electronics and sensors which collect dust. Before the digital camera age, sealing a camera was just not such an issue. As the 'innards' have changed, so has the requirement for protecting these components from the environment. I wouldn't be surprised if the next camera in the Leica production line - M10 - will have some form of dust sealing and an auto cleaning sensor, after all I imagine that it's only a minor change that they would have to make?
 
GSNfan said:
But then again in ancient Greece the Spartans ate a black and nasty soup which horrified the rest of the Greeks yet they could beat any Greek army with fewer numbers and eventually defeated the well-fed and decadent Athenians in the Peloponnesian war.

A meager and spartan diet is almost universally associated with creative, strong and resilient people. The Samurai, the Jesuits, the Sadus and not to forget the starving artists.
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Creative? Pull the other one. Name a few Spartan philosophers, sculptors or architects. I don't know enough about Samurai art but I've never heard of any. Not sure what you mean by Sadus, but if you're talking about Indian holy men, no, I don't think they're noted for theor strength, just for their stoicism. As for the Society of Jesus, damn' few of them starve.

As for starving artists, that's a romantic fantasy that I trace back to Goethe. Before that, it was a way of earning a living like any other. Since then, there've been plenty of rich, successful artists too: Alma-Tadema springs to mind. It's just that starving artists have a particular appeal for people who aren't very good. "Look at van Gogh," they say, "Never sold a painting in his life!" Logically, this the classic omitted middle. Sure, it's possible never to sell a painting because you're a misunderstood genius and way ahead of your time. It's also possible that you're just not very good; or bad at marketing yourself; or....

Cheers,

R.
 
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It never ceases to amaze me:

How many people think shooting a civil disruption in an urban environment is a challenging environment for a camera. Its not about that; its about dust, filth, water, humidity. These can hurt a camera when photographing teddy bears.
How many people think that people who shoot cameras in hostile environments are doing so because they have a macho ego and should stop being so silly.
How some Leica M9 owners think that anyone asking for more from the brand has sour grapes because they either can't afford one or have frivolous needs which they should 'snap out of.'

Goodness me. Nobody should be critical of Leica not listening to users. If they were to read these debates without taking it all with a pinch of salt, there would be no progress to be made. After all, what more could a person want from a camera or a brand. Moreover, who dares to ask?

Nobody is saying the M9 is not a great camera. I think the original question related to the direction the brand is going in and the potential open to the company with the success of the M9 and enthusiasm shown by segments of the PJ market keen to drop their heavy DSLRs. Arguably the M9 was a great turning point for the company and I think the future is a very interesting question...
 
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Turtle said:
It never ceases to amaze me:

How many people think shooting a civil disruption in an urban environment is a challenging environment for a camera. Its not about that; its about dust, filth, water, humidity. These can hurt a camera when photographing teddy bears.
How many people think that people who shoot cameras in hostile environments are doing so because they have a macho ego and should stop being so silly.
How some Leica M9 owners think that anyone asking for more from the brand has sour grapes because they either can't afford one or have frivolous needs which they should 'snap out of.'

Goodness me. Nobody should be critical of Leica not listening to users. If they were to read these debates without taking it all with a pinch of salt, there would be no progress to be made. After all, what more could a person want from a camera or a brand. Moreover, who dares to ask?

Nobody is saying the M9 is not a great camera. I think the original question related to the direction the brand is going in and the potential open to the company with the success of the M9 and enthusiasm shown by segments of the PJ market keen to drop their heavy DSLRs. Arguably the M9 was a great turning point for the company and I think the future is a very interesting question...
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I'm not sure it's quite that. What I'm suggesting is that most people don't shoot cameras in hostile environments, but that many fantasize about doing do. They're the macho twerps. Those who actually do it are a tiny minority. Best of luck to them, and a better 'hardened' M10 would be a disadvantage for none; a small advantage for most; and a big advantage to a very few.

I'm also referring to the notorious fact that some people can cover a war, and come back with their cameras looking as if they'd taken a walk around the block, while others can take a walk around the block, and bring their cameras back looking as if they'd covered a war.

Cheers,

R.
 
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Turtle said:
It never ceases to amaze me:

How many people think shooting a civil disruption in an urban environment is a challenging environment for a camera. Its not about that; its about dust, filth, water, humidity. These can hurt a camera when photographing teddy bears.
How many people think that people who shoot cameras in hostile environments are doing so because they have a macho ego and should stop being so silly.
How some Leica M9 owners think that anyone asking for more from the brand has sour grapes because they either can't afford one or have frivolous needs which they should 'snap out of.'

Goodness me. Nobody should be critical of Leica not listening to users. If they were to read these debates without taking it all with a pinch of salt, there would be no progress to be made. After all, what more could a person want from a camera or a brand. Moreover, who dares to ask?

Nobody is saying the M9 is not a great camera. I think the original question related to the direction the brand is going in and the potential open to the company with the success of the M9 and enthusiasm shown by segments of the PJ market keen to drop their heavy DSLRs. Arguably the M9 was a great turning point for the company and I think the future is a very interesting question...
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thank you for getting us back on track here my friend.

i am thrilled the M9 is on the market and look forward to trying one. the question wasn't so much about the M9 as it was about marketing and brand viability/credibility. yes, nikanon promotes the upper tiers legitimacy to then influence sales of consumer models and this is exactly what i am talking about. one doesn't need to duplicate that approach precisely to understand and hopefully reap the benefits.
 
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Gabriel M.A. said:
The rangefinder is a fine (as in "delicate") piece which would not withstand the rigors of in-the-middle-of-the-action reporting bangs and abuses.
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This is a myth, perpetrated by people who believe a Leica needs a CLA every 10 rolls and that CLA should only be carried out by one of 5 techs and should take between 6 and 12 months to perform.

Rangefinders are rugged cameras able to withstand a helluva lot of punishment. Always have been.

GSNfan said:
But even if M9 was dust proof and water proof, you still have to change lenses, because unlike pro DSLRs it does not come with zoom lenses which means you have to change lenses and in the process expose that sensor to dust and sand of far of places.
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So no DSLR users shoot primes?? And journalism is never shot with primes? Zoom with your feet man, and carry more than one body.
 
Leicas were never marketed as hardened battle cameras. The vast majority of people who bought them were always well-to-do amateurs. For a while, a few photographers covered wars and the like with them. Great. But they were always luxury cameras to most people; they didn't sell on fantasies of being a war correspondent.

This does not mean for an instant that the M9 is perfect, or that M10 shouldn't be better sealed: just that it's possible to overstate the importance of the (sometimes over-romanticised) PJ market, and especially of that small segment of it that hammers its cameras mercilessly.

Cheers,

R.
 
David_Manning said:
Aside from dust and other reliability questions, how about operating temperatures in the Sahara?

It's obvious from a max-reliability issue, the answer is two film M's and b&w film (color will wilt in the heat).

Or a D700/D3 :)

BTW, I totally agree with the OP...Leica has evolved from a simple, reliable tool known for it's brilliant optics, to a dilletant's luxury item for fair-weather photography. I really love using my M6 and enjoy the unique look of the Tri-X film process, but when the going gets tough, I always reach for my Nikon.
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and a few m's (film) it will be. funnily enough, when the going gets real tough i reach for the M6's.
 
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