M9 with B&W sensor?

[sleepyhead]

Can anyone explain what 10x greater Lux sensitivity means in f-stops?
Thanks

 

[igi]

Ah the no-LCD fantasy again... just like a chastity belt 😀

 

[BobYIL]

Can anyone explain what 10x greater Lux sensitivity means in f-stops?
Thanks

Very difficult to estimate in dB as the outcome will be the product of the SNR out of the imaging processor too. Will Leica employ some 6th generation Fujitsu Milbeut in the new model like Nikon or Fujifilm do for example? Most probably they will aim to deliver usable B&W IQ around ISO 6400 this time.

 

[dallard]

NEWS ALERT! Interchangeable black and white sensor can be seen at this link!
http://www.adorama.com/KKTX36U.html
😀

 

[dallard]

I heard rumors that the Leica announcement will be about a Leica M-wet plate collodion version. Insider information, couldn't get confirmation, but very interesting indeed if true.

Spy photos have leaked of the new Leica. Unfortunately, there's no red dot or vulcanite covering 🙁

Daguerrotype Whole Plate Camera, Science Museum by Riggzy, on Flickr

 

[dallard]

I suppose I should put sarcasm aside for a moment and be somewhat serious but I just don't see why anyone would spend good money on a black and white only digital Leica. I suppose, as a Leica shooter, I should know by now that logic must be placed on hiatus when considering the motivations of Leica shooters. God knows, I didn't buy my M6 with my brain.

 

[FA Limited]

Well I thought if there would be no LCD the could save a lot on making it, dont know about making a B&W sensor though, maybe that is very expensive.

when $99 cameras have LCDs it should not really be a matter of cost

 

[jsrockit]

I suppose I should put sarcasm aside for a moment and be somewhat serious but I just don't see why anyone would spend good money on a black and white only digital Leica. I suppose, as a Leica shooter, I should know by now that logic must be placed on hiatus when considering the motivations of Leica shooters. God knows, I didn't buy my M6 with my brain.

I'm not so sure what the difference between a B&W only digital and only using B&W film in your analog camera is... is there a difference?

 

[huntjump]

I'm not so sure what the difference between a B&W only digital and only using B&W film in your analog camera is... is there a difference?

Probably the difference lies in that he COULD put color film in anytime he wants to, preserving both color and B&W options, while a pure B&W sensor would foreclose color permanently. but if he "only" used B&W film there'd be no difference 😀

I love the idea, but I agree the price will not make it realistic for me even if true. If had the money, id buy one B*W only camera and one that can do color.

 

[dallard]

Probably the difference lies in that he COULD put color film in anytime he wants to, preserving both color and B&W options, while a pure B&W sensor would foreclose color permanently. but if he "only" used B&W film there'd be no difference 😀

What he said^^ 🙂
I do occasionally shoot a roll of slides and send it off to PCV. It's nice to get hi res digital photos AND mounted slides back that last 100 years. I suppose if I did photography for a living I would probably be all digital though.

 

[Calzone]

Probably the difference lies in that he COULD put color film in anytime he wants to, preserving both color and B&W options, while a pure B&W sensor would foreclose color permanently. but if he "only" used B&W film there'd be no difference 😀

I love the idea, but I agree the price will not make it realistic for me even if true. If had the money, id buy one B*W only camera and one that can do color.

The M9 is a great camera, and I considered getting a chrome M9P, but in my film cameras over the last 3-4 years I shot 5 rolls of Kodachrome only because someone gave them to me and maybe three other rolls of color negative film.

Meanwhile I tend to shoot 30, 40 and sometimes even 50 rolls a month in B&W.

Cal

 

[Jobin]

That's a lot of B&W film! I am starting to enjoy color more and more. I know nothing about pixels, sensors or technical jargon but this camera will more than likely sell just because it is Leica.

The M9 is a great camera, and I considered getting a chrome M9P, but in my film cameras over the last 3-4 years I shot 5 rolls of Kodachrome only because someone gave them to me and maybe three other rolls of color negative film.

Meanwhile I tend to shoot 30, 40 and sometimes even 50 rolls a month in B&W.

Cal

 

[jsrockit]

Cal, I think it's great that we go photograph together and we are the exact opposites in our workflow. I always wonder if you'd hate the M9 or not. However, if it isn't broke, don't fix it. My set-up works great for me, but might be your nightmare.

 

[135format]

Can anyone explain what 10x greater Lux sensitivity means in f-stops?
Thanks

10X lux is a tad over 4 stops.

 

[kshapero]

I love this response to the proposed new B/W Digital Leica:

" You've all been duped/need to read more. All digital camera sensors see in monochrome and extrapolate the incoming data into colors based on the frequency of the light striking the different parts of the surface. All digital cameras have by default, a “black and white” sensor.
It’s very much like the Maple Syrup industry claiming that their product is “Organically grown”. Which is like saying that fish swim, since there’s no other way to grow it.
And though I see lots of ‘aficionado’s’ flouting the ‘distinct character of each individual black and white film emulsion’ I remain a film user and am unimpressed by the comparison to an image file that will die with you.
Silver never fades and doesn’t need to be saved, backed-up, de-fragged or run through a program to remove ‘noise’.
Go to freestylephoto.biz people. Get real."

 

[Shade]

It does sound interesting, but if that was the case, I'm happy enough to convert my DNG to B/W from my M9. 🙂

And 2500? I don't think so, even the M8, preowned, is still in that price range.

 

[willie_901]

How can the sensor see in monochrome when only photons with red, blue or green frequencies make it past the microlenses and are detected?

The photosites behind red microlenses don't detect blue and green frequency photos... and so on.

 

[hteasley]

How can the sensor see in monochrome when only photons with red, blue or green frequencies make it past the microlenses and are detected?

The photosites behind red microlenses don't detect blue and green frequency photos... and so on.

You can just remove the bayer filter, and let light hit the photosites directly. That's my understanding (which is a layman's understanding, to be sure).

 

[robklurfield]

Cal, single-ended 300-B triode monoblocks. About as simple and straightforward a design as is possible in the world of audio amplification. Not much goes into them. Why then do they cost so damned much? The analogy here is that if Leica makes it simpler, they'll probably still have to charge megabucks for it just because they're Leica. I love my Cary 300B amps, but as a value proposition, its not about how much engineering, labor or materials went into them, but rather how much Cary can get away with charging. And, Cary is far from the most expensive brand. Ergo, even if Leica were silly enough (silly here meaning that the market for a b&w only camera is probably not limited a to population only a little larger than the membership of RFF), they'd have to charge a bundle to (a) maintain their reputation for exclusivity and (b) to amortize the cost of tying up production capacity.

Another analogy. When a company like Rolex or Patek Philippe develops a new movement, they can plop into a case made out of any metal they want. Why is it that a steel Patek Nautilus or Rolex Daytona is so out of whack with the value of the materials? Well, cuz it's a no brainer that the margins on the gold and platinum models are so much more that it's not worth casing anything in steel unless they charge a ridiculous premium for steel. While slightly non-intuitive, entirely sensible from a P&L perspective.

So, Leica could make a camera that contains less (ie, a B&W only sensor; no display; etc.) AND still charge more for it because some of our rich friends will still pay the freight.\

Anyway, Cal, what do use those monoblocks to drive and what's on the front-end? If I didn't know that space is a problem, could picture you with a pair of really efficient horns, but I'm guessing that's not the case. However, I'm sure you spin vinyl, right?

Bob,

My understanding might be wrong, but I understand it takes three pixels to make a color signal and the required filtering for color processing degrades the signal.

At home I have single ended triode monoblocks using a 300B vacuum tube for a stereo. Signal processing is a big factor. I'm assuming that signal processing in a B&W only sensor would be simple and more pure in a similar analog way to my audio where less is more.

Your explaination about sensitivity makes sense. and there's a lot of grey area that I'm hoping leads to other possibilities.

As I remember Phase One did a comparision between their B&W sensor and one of their much larger color sensors to compare remarkable resolution and make a statement about the jump in resolution. This lead me to believe that there is a possibility that making a more basic B&W only digital camera might have some real performance advantages.

Any help in further understand is greatly appreciated. I'm just an old film guy who doesn't even scan.

Cal

 

[sleepyhead]

Thomas's response, quoted below, is the one that resonates most with me.

As long as B&W with film is still possible, why kill it's unique-ness and go digital?

Digital's strength over analog at the moment is in COLOUR.

Still, interesting thread - a mix of technical/electronic/sensor stuff and artistic goals and media

As a guy who only shoots BW film, you'd think that I might be interested in such a camera. I must say I would not be interested insofar as BW film/chemistry/paper are available for me to use instead. Change the situation and I would start to accept that this MP-d might be (or whatever it was termed by Sepiareverb in his wonderful 'dream dRF' thread last year) for what I have to settle. But that's how I'd view it, as a compromise to what I really wanted to be able to do. Fortunately I can do what I want in BW without any compromises at this point -- give me ilford's ART 300 paper over any digital print at this point in time. Now my comment here presupposes that BW files from this hypothetical MP-d look like BW files from a digital sensor: if that changes, that is, the files do become indistinguishable from real BW film, then my choice would start to become more difficult.

One other thing: BW in digital seems lacking to me, but not colour. colour in digital can be wonderful. I fail to understand why Leica would want to design a digital M that moves away from the very strength of digital capture?