mrisney
Well-known
I left 35mm film about 6 months ago.
Dissatisfied with the image quality, compared to what I was getting with my Canon 5DMKIII, and more recently the Sigma DP2M,
I didn't see the need to continue on with 35mm roll film. The hassle of scanning, viewing my images in lightroom on my IPS monitor, blah, blah, blah ...
Sadly I sold off my Contax G2 with the 21mm. That was a mistake maybe. I had all the lenses, even the 35mm-70mm vario, I did like that kit.
Although the one lens that evaded me, was the fabled Zeiss 16mm Holgon. Too exotic, too expensive, from what I read, too difficult to use, practically, more for the collector I guess.
I am not interested in getting back into M bodies with both feet.
But I have read enough of the 12mm and the 15mm to give it a go.
So my concept is to put together a dedicated superwide shooter. I know this is typical usage for the MD's, but does anyone use a similar setup that much ?
I have read about how you basically set your focus to 1m, and f/8, meter accordingly, and pretty much everything is in focus. Really ?
Do you not need to focus at all ? Does it really work out that way ? I am not into collecting, and having done M4-P's (twice), I have no problem with a meter-less camera.
To those of you, who use a MD/MDA or MD-2 with a superwide - do you really use it that much, or is it a shelf queen?
I don't think I have much interest in messing around with Visoflex, so an MD-2 as far as I can imagine, would be strictly a dedicated 12/15mm,or maybe a 21mm shooter, as mentioned earlier, I never got a chance to shoot with the Zeiss 16mm Hologon, so I hope the Heliar will give me something close to that experience, and maybe the images from a 15mm Heliar will scratch that itch.
Dissatisfied with the image quality, compared to what I was getting with my Canon 5DMKIII, and more recently the Sigma DP2M,
I didn't see the need to continue on with 35mm roll film. The hassle of scanning, viewing my images in lightroom on my IPS monitor, blah, blah, blah ...
Sadly I sold off my Contax G2 with the 21mm. That was a mistake maybe. I had all the lenses, even the 35mm-70mm vario, I did like that kit.
Although the one lens that evaded me, was the fabled Zeiss 16mm Holgon. Too exotic, too expensive, from what I read, too difficult to use, practically, more for the collector I guess.
I am not interested in getting back into M bodies with both feet.
But I have read enough of the 12mm and the 15mm to give it a go.
So my concept is to put together a dedicated superwide shooter. I know this is typical usage for the MD's, but does anyone use a similar setup that much ?
I have read about how you basically set your focus to 1m, and f/8, meter accordingly, and pretty much everything is in focus. Really ?
Do you not need to focus at all ? Does it really work out that way ? I am not into collecting, and having done M4-P's (twice), I have no problem with a meter-less camera.
To those of you, who use a MD/MDA or MD-2 with a superwide - do you really use it that much, or is it a shelf queen?
I don't think I have much interest in messing around with Visoflex, so an MD-2 as far as I can imagine, would be strictly a dedicated 12/15mm,or maybe a 21mm shooter, as mentioned earlier, I never got a chance to shoot with the Zeiss 16mm Hologon, so I hope the Heliar will give me something close to that experience, and maybe the images from a 15mm Heliar will scratch that itch.
FrankS
Registered User
Any body that fit these lenses would work as a scale focusing wide angle platform. I especially like the Leica CL for my CV21.
jcrutcher
Veteran
I have a M1 setup for this with a CV 15mm. I primarily use Portra 400 since It works so well at 800 or 100 depending on the need. I should use the setup for than I do however, it sits a lot. Your idea works, you can also us a Barnack if the lens is a LTM, going have to either guess on the framing or use a OVF.
Jim
Jim
mooge
Well-known
I've got a voigtlander 12mm.
It's pretty insane.
I used to think that too wide was not wide enough, and then I got this lens. You can be right beside your subject (or subjects) and with this lens, there'll be a ton of space left over-- like with this picture I took with the 12. the little booth we were in was maybe 2m x 2m. the 12 also has the tendancy to stretch people's faces if they're not exactly in the centre of the frame or if the lens isn't exactly level with them. so I'd suggest you have a good idea of exactly what you want to do with all that coverage before you go for the 12. otherwise, maybe a 15 or 21 would be better.
But other than the insanity of 121 degrees of coverage, the 12 is awesome. The focus scale is click-stopped for hyperfocal distances at 5,6 and 11 (really useful), and the hyperfocal wide open at 5,6 is from infinity to 0,5m. no need to worry about focusing. and as a bonus, the finder looks like a television set.
And also for some reason, the 12 is really easy hold steadily. That photo I linked to was a 1 second exposure... and it's sharp enough.
If I were getting a dedicated wide-angle body for a voigtlander 12 or 15 or 21 (my mostly unfounded advice: get the screwmount ones-- they may not be as pretty but they're cheaper and they focus closer I think?), I'd look at Canon screwmounts. Because you could probably get something cool for less than a MD would cost, like a Canon P or VT (trigger winder!!!) or something like that. I wouldn't go for a Leica II or something without slow speeds though (at f/5,6,you run out of light pretty quick).
So, what do I use the 12 for? well, events, I guess. Like the guitar show. But that was really because I just got the 12 and when you get a new lens, you must (by law in Ontario) use it continuously for at least two weeks. And the other lenses I had back then were both 50s and 50s are boring.
But seriously, I find the 12 is good for indoors (tight spaces) and colour (blue skies!). And you get so much in the frame that it's great for putting things in context, especially if you're up close and don't have space or time to move back. It can also make do as an everyday lens, if you don't mind your everyday events having converging verticals.
hope that answers some of your questions.
It's pretty insane.
I used to think that too wide was not wide enough, and then I got this lens. You can be right beside your subject (or subjects) and with this lens, there'll be a ton of space left over-- like with this picture I took with the 12. the little booth we were in was maybe 2m x 2m. the 12 also has the tendancy to stretch people's faces if they're not exactly in the centre of the frame or if the lens isn't exactly level with them. so I'd suggest you have a good idea of exactly what you want to do with all that coverage before you go for the 12. otherwise, maybe a 15 or 21 would be better.
But other than the insanity of 121 degrees of coverage, the 12 is awesome. The focus scale is click-stopped for hyperfocal distances at 5,6 and 11 (really useful), and the hyperfocal wide open at 5,6 is from infinity to 0,5m. no need to worry about focusing. and as a bonus, the finder looks like a television set.
And also for some reason, the 12 is really easy hold steadily. That photo I linked to was a 1 second exposure... and it's sharp enough.
If I were getting a dedicated wide-angle body for a voigtlander 12 or 15 or 21 (my mostly unfounded advice: get the screwmount ones-- they may not be as pretty but they're cheaper and they focus closer I think?), I'd look at Canon screwmounts. Because you could probably get something cool for less than a MD would cost, like a Canon P or VT (trigger winder!!!) or something like that. I wouldn't go for a Leica II or something without slow speeds though (at f/5,6,you run out of light pretty quick).
So, what do I use the 12 for? well, events, I guess. Like the guitar show. But that was really because I just got the 12 and when you get a new lens, you must (by law in Ontario) use it continuously for at least two weeks. And the other lenses I had back then were both 50s and 50s are boring.
But seriously, I find the 12 is good for indoors (tight spaces) and colour (blue skies!). And you get so much in the frame that it's great for putting things in context, especially if you're up close and don't have space or time to move back. It can also make do as an everyday lens, if you don't mind your everyday events having converging verticals.
hope that answers some of your questions.
dabick42
Well-known
My dedicated wideangle shooter is an MDa fitted with a Novoflex LEM/NIK adapter and using Nikon F lenses 20, 24, 28 and 35mm.
Fitted with either a 25 or 35mm clip-on viewfinder (and using judgement for those lenses not covered by these), this is a brilliant general purpose/ street shooting rig.
Cheap Leica body + cheap ( and excellent ! ) Nikon F lenses - what's not to like ?
I've used this rig for years with great results.
Highly recommended...
Fitted with either a 25 or 35mm clip-on viewfinder (and using judgement for those lenses not covered by these), this is a brilliant general purpose/ street shooting rig.
Cheap Leica body + cheap ( and excellent ! ) Nikon F lenses - what's not to like ?
I've used this rig for years with great results.
Highly recommended...
mrisney
Well-known
Thanks for this, this is really good first person experience that I was hoping for, I may very well pick up a 12mm, you are one of the few who enthusiastically endorses the 12mm, mostly I read about - that it's a tough lens to work with, fall off, level, balance, etc. Somewhere along a thread or conversation, it's suggested I might be better off with a 15mm, if I am just getting into CV's superwides. But you endorse the 12mm, I like that
Agreed on the body choices, but I have funds for a MD-2, so cost is not that much of an issue, I liked my M4-P, and I thought the engineering and durability was just fine for my needs. So MD-2 has some appeal, I picked one up for under $500, I also ordered the new(er) 15mm voigtlander finder and to bring it all together, I got a great deal on a M mount 15mm, so the total cost is under $1200, and I will say this, never, ever was I able to find a 16mm Hologon for my Contax G2 for that amount. So there you have it, a complete dedicated superwide, accessible, and hopefully works out for me, as much as the unicorn/Zeiss Hologon might have.
mrisney
Well-known
Good deal, thanks for the response - so a rangefinder-less M is not an issue even at 28 or 35 ? Scale focusing - and you get desired sharpness ?
I am a maniac about sharpness, I know, it's a flaw on my part. Still I have bought, and sold, bought, and sold so many bodies and lenses, because they were too soft for my taste.
ruby.monkey
Veteran
MDa with 25mm f/4 Snapshot-Skopar and MD-2 with 12mm f/5.6 Ultra-Wide Heliar:
EPM18748 by ruby.monkey, on Flickr
Certainly not shelf queens. I don't shoot with super-wide lenses all that often, but when I do I find the Leica bodies a pleasure to use.
EPM18748 by ruby.monkey, on Flickr
Certainly not shelf queens. I don't shoot with super-wide lenses all that often, but when I do I find the Leica bodies a pleasure to use.
mrisney
Well-known
Yes, here is one from the great Contax G2 21mm Zeiss, that was the hardest issue on parting with that kit.
THAT lens, it was really something. I do agree with oft commented sentiment that a finder can be a nuisance,
something that easily falls off the shoe, to chase down a sidewalk for.
However the images that I got with that lens and with Portra, pretty spectacular, nothing digital has come close.
Contax G2, 21mm Zeiss Biogon, Kodak Portra 160, Oregon Coast
And yes, to your comment about getting into wides, and wanting more, more ... agreed, once you get a taste of wide, you want it,
like an addiction - unfortunately for me, the 16mm experience was never satisfied.
If there ever was a 10mm or a Voigtlander fisheye for the M mount, I would be on a waiting list - like the very moment it is announced.
mooge
Well-known
I think the 12 is on the verge of being too wide though-- you're given all this angle of view but what are you going to do with it? in my case, it's often stretched faces or empty space at the edges of the frame...
so I guess I do endorse the 12 -- but with restraint. it's great optically and well made and designed (focus click stops! best thing ever..) BUT this lens is ridiculously wide, and it's very hard to hide the wideness (and associated weirdness) of the lens.
With respects to finders though, I dropped the 12's finder once (lucky it didn't break!) but I've since put a bit of duct tape on the bottom of the foot, and now it stays put.
and another random story:
I walked into the local used camera shop one day a long time ago, and they showed me this lens they had for sale. It was a Zeiss Hologon 15... for Leica M mount. The camera shop guys said that there was some old pro getting rid of all his stuff, and this was one of the things he sold to them. The lens came with the box and finder (a bit hazy, but they didn't want to risk cleaning it) and the center filter. They said it was worth about $10,000 (or something)...
so I guess I do endorse the 12 -- but with restraint. it's great optically and well made and designed (focus click stops! best thing ever..) BUT this lens is ridiculously wide, and it's very hard to hide the wideness (and associated weirdness) of the lens.
With respects to finders though, I dropped the 12's finder once (lucky it didn't break!) but I've since put a bit of duct tape on the bottom of the foot, and now it stays put.
and another random story:
I walked into the local used camera shop one day a long time ago, and they showed me this lens they had for sale. It was a Zeiss Hologon 15... for Leica M mount. The camera shop guys said that there was some old pro getting rid of all his stuff, and this was one of the things he sold to them. The lens came with the box and finder (a bit hazy, but they didn't want to risk cleaning it) and the center filter. They said it was worth about $10,000 (or something)...
mrisney
Well-known
There was a Zeiss Ikon Ultrawide, that was dedicated with a 15mm f/8 Holgon. It is very rare, I believe it was a dedicated body . I am not saying that a Voigtlander Heliar, is on the same level as a Zeiss Hologon, but I hope it will be OK for me.
More to the point, it seems like scale focusing is the defacto mode of focusing on such a wide lenses, therefore not having a viewfinder should not be an issue.
More to the point, it seems like scale focusing is the defacto mode of focusing on such a wide lenses, therefore not having a viewfinder should not be an issue.
DavidKKHansen
Well-known
For most of this year my solution to wide angle scale focussing has been the Zeiss Ikon SW; The M mount camera without a rangefinder. I used the Voigtländer 25mm f/4 with a Zeiss 25/28 viewfinder. In my opinion, the Zeiss finders are the best finders available new today.
What I liked about the Ikon SW is that it's got a built in light meter + Aperture priority feature. Mainly though I used it for flash photography, as there is a hot shoe and PC socket located right next to the cold shoe where the external viewfinder goes in. Plus it syncs at 1/125, not like the super slow 1/50 of Leica cameras. Batteries last for quite a number of rolls.
The Ikon SW wasn't ever a huge sales success and I was able to buy mine for €400 brand new. Look around and you can find similar prices in the US.
I too had a problem with the viewfinder occasionally falling off. One trip to Zeiss service center in Germany (they're phenomenal) and they tightened the springs in the cold shoe so much so that it was getting difficult to mount the viewfinder.
By the way, you know you can have the Contax G mount 21mm lens converted to the Leica M mount? I believe Japan Exposures offers such a service.
What I liked about the Ikon SW is that it's got a built in light meter + Aperture priority feature. Mainly though I used it for flash photography, as there is a hot shoe and PC socket located right next to the cold shoe where the external viewfinder goes in. Plus it syncs at 1/125, not like the super slow 1/50 of Leica cameras. Batteries last for quite a number of rolls.
The Ikon SW wasn't ever a huge sales success and I was able to buy mine for €400 brand new. Look around and you can find similar prices in the US.
I too had a problem with the viewfinder occasionally falling off. One trip to Zeiss service center in Germany (they're phenomenal) and they tightened the springs in the cold shoe so much so that it was getting difficult to mount the viewfinder.
By the way, you know you can have the Contax G mount 21mm lens converted to the Leica M mount? I believe Japan Exposures offers such a service.
mrisney
Well-known
I was able to use the Really Right Stuff L "All Purpose Plate", but noticed that the hole on the base plate is not centered.
By using a motor winder, the L Plate can grab and center.
It's a nice dedicated super wide, hoping that the tripod will aid in getting sharp images.
Leica MD-2, Voigtlander 15mm 4.5 Heliar II, Leica Motor
By using a motor winder, the L Plate can grab and center.
It's a nice dedicated super wide, hoping that the tripod will aid in getting sharp images.
Leica MD-2, Voigtlander 15mm 4.5 Heliar II, Leica Motor
jarski
Veteran
nice camera mrisney! been also curious about these rangefinderless M's for wide angles.
sepiareverb
genius and moron
If the MD-2 is doing what you need great. I have the Zeiss Ikon SW, as I much prefer a meter in the camera. In camera metering with ultra-wides is a bit trickier, but it's not too hard to figure out.
