Sparrow
Veteran
A few year ago I complained to the local police authority about a reduction of police activity in the village where I live. Three days later my wife was stopped, read her rights, booked and given a producer (had to attend a police station) in a very aggressive manner, our kids were present and were terrified
By sheer coincidence the car was registered in my name, I regret not complaining now
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
I've been stopped in malls in Canada, but strangely enough NEVER by mall security... it's always by the janitorial staff for some reason.... does someone want to feel more important than their mop and one piece uniform will let them?
Paul T.
Veteran
Well there ya go, you wanted more police activity, you got it!
Ken Smith
Why yes Ma'am - it folds
Actually - as a parent I applaud the fathers for being observant and reporting what they saw. A lone middle aged or older male taking pictures in a public place that possibly involve children fits into two catagories. Those being a photographer of some sort or a pedophile. Having to search one of these individuals and finding little girl's panties stuffed into his pockets isn't very pleasant - especially when you have two daughters of your own. Then to have to search his quarters and find jpeg after jpeg of little kids in bathing suits at a public pool, kids running around at a park, and while accompaning their parents at a mall - well it's kinda sickening.
Where this particular photographer really messed up was sticking his hand into his pocket while being approached by cops. In case you haven't noticed cops are being slain in public places now a days.
A cop with cameras
Where this particular photographer really messed up was sticking his hand into his pocket while being approached by cops. In case you haven't noticed cops are being slain in public places now a days.
A cop with cameras
wgerrard
Veteran
So, you are asserting that all male photographers are under suspicion as potential pedophiles until proven innocent?
This photographer clearly had no interest in the children that appeared, by random chance, in his photos. To argue otherwise is to argue against male photographers taking pictures at school or church functions, at family gatherings, at athletic events, and any other routine activity where a child's image may, by happenstance, be included in the final image.
In addition, the argument, and the photography policy of many malls, seems to be premised on the notion that fathers accompanied by children can take all the photos they wish without being cast as pedophiles. Logic and crime statistics might suggest that line of thought is faulty.
Parents have an obligation to protect their children, but allowing hysteria to serve as a justification for oppression, in this regard and elsewhere, is a footstep on the road to fascism.
I'm not at all sure what your comment about "cops are being slain in public places" has to do with photography.
Steve M.
Veteran
This is a prickly subject, isn't it? Having said that, I am always suspicious of newspapers. They have a tendency to spruce things up in order to get an eye grabbing headline. Today's journalism being what it is (or isn't) these days, you have to wonder what really and truly happened. I'm sure the photographer has his version and the police have theirs!
The general rule is if you're on private property they make the rules. If you're on public property you can photograph away, within certain limits. The other general rule is that most security guards are ill trained, to put it mildly, and abusive of what little power they do have.
I've learned to carry a small, fast digital P&S and use it quickly if I really need a shot in an iffy place, and I hate malls so don't have to deal w/ that. The bigger the city you're in the worse this problem seems to be.
The general rule is if you're on private property they make the rules. If you're on public property you can photograph away, within certain limits. The other general rule is that most security guards are ill trained, to put it mildly, and abusive of what little power they do have.
I've learned to carry a small, fast digital P&S and use it quickly if I really need a shot in an iffy place, and I hate malls so don't have to deal w/ that. The bigger the city you're in the worse this problem seems to be.
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
If it's ok to say "I'm out with my children.. don't take pictures anywhere near us because you're a pedophile until proven otherwise"... why do we as photographers not have the right to say "I'm out taking pictures.. get your children the hell out of my shot... I don't want to be accused of being a pedophile"
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
I guess the point is if parks suddenly posted signs saying "children's area.. no photography" they'd be happy... but if the sign read "photographers area... no children" they'd be pissed... neither is right... both take away rights from somebody but people won't see that
peterm1
Veteran
I am always very careful about photographing when there are kids around. In fact unless I am in the presence of my wife I will avoid it, just to avoid such situations. I know its crazy but thats today's screwed up society. Besides I have to admit I am not really interested in photographing rug rats and ankle biters anyway so the choice is usually easy. Unless of course they are doing something photogenic and interesting froma n imaging perspective.
A couple of these exceptions below but in the first the kid's dad was present and seemed not to object. And in the second the kid was busking so I figured was in the limelight anyway.
A couple of these exceptions below but in the first the kid's dad was present and seemed not to object. And in the second the kid was busking so I figured was in the limelight anyway.
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Ducky
Well-known
The shot of the girl playing the flute is excellent. Just beautiful in all respects.
Particular
a.k.a. CNNY, disassembler
I have been in many 'situations' with security staff or law enforcement. I have no problem with someone coming up to me asking what I am doing. It is their job to ask questions. Unfortunately I have never been in a situation yet where one of these people backs down and walks away after I have given them a reasonable explanation of what I am doing, even if I am clearly acting legally in a public place. I always try to be as polite as possible, but that is rarely how I am treated. It just seems to be easier to intimidate, than to reason. They must think we are wasting their time, but they are also wasting ours.
Quote from police officer: "Go away! Don't come back! Don't do it again!"
(next day I was back with camera in the same spot, doing MY work)
I was in a park a year ago or so with a female friend. I was letting her try out my R-D1. She made some good images getting up really close to a bunch of kids playing with water, and kept firing away while the parents were watching from a ways away. No one even blinked. I complimented her for being gutsy, and getting close. She didn't think much of it, and didn't want to believe my assertion that if I would have done that I would soon be face down the mud with cuffs on.
Some pre-conceptions are very hard to dispel.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
More ridiculousness from all sides involved in this "story" imho.
I don't care how famous this guy is.
Do the math if you're a parent.
There's a lone guy, no girlfriend, no wife, no kids with him;
walking in a mall. . . . taking photos of people; and, perhaps, your kid (you don't know, if it's a 24x zoom lens or if it's a super wide - you're not a photographer, you're just a concerned parent after all).
I certainly would be a bit suspicious too if I didn't know squat about photography.
Here, where everyone knows, one would hope, at least a little bit about photography we can paint that rent-a-cop and the folks that reported Rensberger as being alarmist and paranoid; but put yourself, honestly, in that situation. Was Rensberger "shopping"? Did he have any bags from stores in the mall? Or was he just wandering around after eating at the food court snapping away?
This is compounded by the fact that Rensberger did himself no good by slapping the rent-a-cops hand. I doubt the "resisting arrest" charge to be honest but slapping the hand and then pointing the camera at Basford was dumb beyond dumb.
I know everyone here is going on about our "rights" as photographers - bottom line, is that the mall is private property. Would you stand for someone standing on your lawn, in front of your house, on your property (not the sidewalk, not the street, but on your lawn) and photographing your kid playing on your property and then claim "it's my RIGHT" to do so? Think about that for a second.
Since this took place in the U.S. I'm sure there's umpteen lawyers salivating to get a hold of this lawsuit that's going to happen (according to Rensberger). That's what it comes down to.
Common sense should be the rule of thumb but as it's been said by those far more intelligent than I, common sense is not that common.
Dave
I don't care how famous this guy is.
Do the math if you're a parent.
There's a lone guy, no girlfriend, no wife, no kids with him;
walking in a mall. . . . taking photos of people; and, perhaps, your kid (you don't know, if it's a 24x zoom lens or if it's a super wide - you're not a photographer, you're just a concerned parent after all).
I certainly would be a bit suspicious too if I didn't know squat about photography.
Here, where everyone knows, one would hope, at least a little bit about photography we can paint that rent-a-cop and the folks that reported Rensberger as being alarmist and paranoid; but put yourself, honestly, in that situation. Was Rensberger "shopping"? Did he have any bags from stores in the mall? Or was he just wandering around after eating at the food court snapping away?
This is compounded by the fact that Rensberger did himself no good by slapping the rent-a-cops hand. I doubt the "resisting arrest" charge to be honest but slapping the hand and then pointing the camera at Basford was dumb beyond dumb.
I know everyone here is going on about our "rights" as photographers - bottom line, is that the mall is private property. Would you stand for someone standing on your lawn, in front of your house, on your property (not the sidewalk, not the street, but on your lawn) and photographing your kid playing on your property and then claim "it's my RIGHT" to do so? Think about that for a second.
Since this took place in the U.S. I'm sure there's umpteen lawyers salivating to get a hold of this lawsuit that's going to happen (according to Rensberger). That's what it comes down to.
Common sense should be the rule of thumb but as it's been said by those far more intelligent than I, common sense is not that common.
Dave
sjw617
Panoramist
Why are things like this always posted on this site?
Some incidents are over the top but most are cases of people on private property (who seem to refuse to recognize the fact), in restricted security zones, or 'purposely' creating problems for themselves. Of the billions of photos taken by hundreds of thousands of photographers there are a handful of incidents that get obsessed over on this site. The same arguments are repeated weekly.
Why does anyone still search out these things? They are not news and are not the great threat many people perceive them to be.
Steve
Some incidents are over the top but most are cases of people on private property (who seem to refuse to recognize the fact), in restricted security zones, or 'purposely' creating problems for themselves. Of the billions of photos taken by hundreds of thousands of photographers there are a handful of incidents that get obsessed over on this site. The same arguments are repeated weekly.
Why does anyone still search out these things? They are not news and are not the great threat many people perceive them to be.
Steve
Disaster_Area
Gadget Monger
because we need to educate ourselves and ourselves as a community as to what IS the right way to handle these situation...we need to discuss and analyze so that if and when it happens to us individually we will have learned from these incidents what worked... what didnt... what's the right and wrong things to say... learn what to do and what not to do.... not everyone reads every one of these threads... so yes, it has to be brought up again and again because we CANNOT just roll over and let our rights be trampled.. but we need as a group to know how to handle it properly and how not to make things worse.
smiling gecko
pure dumb luck, my friend
well...
well...
wgerrard, re the last sentence in your post :
"I'm not at all sure what your comment about "cops are being slain in public places" has to do with photography."
over the past 4-6 weeks five police officers (two different instances) have been killed - ambushed - in the seattle and tacoma, washington area.
that comment has more to do with what law enforcement officers (and private security officers) encounter everyday on the job than with photography.
in this case, i'm specifically referring to, the city of charleston police officer had no idea what the photographer was reaching in his pocket for the first time and -i'm making an educated guess here- was not going to give him a second opportunity to make a second reach for ??? it takes the same amount of time for a person to pull out a small camera or weapon or ???
in this kind of encounter an officer may find he is dealing with a regular citizen or someone who has decided he or she just isn't going to jail and will do whatever it takes to maintain their freedom or ???
the photographer escalated the situation by allegedly striking the officer and by allegedly resisting the officer. the officer reacted appropriately for his safety and the safety of those in the mall.
and yes, i have had encounters with security and law enforcement in malls and on private property related to photography. they are doing their job and i have rarely had any unpleasant experiences. the few i've had, i've let them enjoy their power trips/bad manners/poor judgement and just moved on. remember, you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.
breathe, relax and enjoy.
happy trails,
kenneth
well...
wgerrard, re the last sentence in your post :
"I'm not at all sure what your comment about "cops are being slain in public places" has to do with photography."
over the past 4-6 weeks five police officers (two different instances) have been killed - ambushed - in the seattle and tacoma, washington area.
that comment has more to do with what law enforcement officers (and private security officers) encounter everyday on the job than with photography.
in this case, i'm specifically referring to, the city of charleston police officer had no idea what the photographer was reaching in his pocket for the first time and -i'm making an educated guess here- was not going to give him a second opportunity to make a second reach for ??? it takes the same amount of time for a person to pull out a small camera or weapon or ???
in this kind of encounter an officer may find he is dealing with a regular citizen or someone who has decided he or she just isn't going to jail and will do whatever it takes to maintain their freedom or ???
the photographer escalated the situation by allegedly striking the officer and by allegedly resisting the officer. the officer reacted appropriately for his safety and the safety of those in the mall.
and yes, i have had encounters with security and law enforcement in malls and on private property related to photography. they are doing their job and i have rarely had any unpleasant experiences. the few i've had, i've let them enjoy their power trips/bad manners/poor judgement and just moved on. remember, you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride.
breathe, relax and enjoy.
happy trails,
kenneth
gb hill
Veteran
Sunday afternoon I was heading home from carrying my trash to our local dumpsite when I saw an object of interest. I parked the car off on a side street & walked along the side of the road to get a few photos with my Canonet. Got the shots I wanted and started walking back to the car when a police car pulled up along side me and asked me, "What did you throw on side of the road"? I told him that I didn't throw anything! I had my Canonet in my right hand & my left hand was in my pocket. Now I'm looking at him through the passenger window and he ask me what am I hiding under my left arm? I raise my left arm telling him nothing, and give him permission to search me. So here I am hands raised, camera still in right hand, being patted down by this young police officer. When he sees I'm not carrying anything illegal he starts looking around on the ground & says it looks like you threw down a beer! I wasn't even drinking a coke! Of course he found nothing because I had nothing! He had a rude attitude the whole time & didn't even say have a nice day! I was nice to him the whole time & figured he was just having a bad day. I sure didn't trust him though! Heck of a time we're living in.
dmr
Registered Abuser
The one thing all of these seem to have in common is that the guy (yes, it's always a guy, sorry) pushes things and gets confrontational! You get ego up against ego and the whole thing explodes. Call it human nature or anything else, but if the guys would just back off a little, most of this would never happen!
Yeah I know, b*tch b*tch b*tch!
pakeha
Well-known
Yeah I know, b*tch b*tch b*tch!
No , right right right on
SO, we got a minority getting pushed around by the po - lice, gee this is kinda familiar, oh but hold on, the minority this time is a bunch of middle class, middle aged chaps with flash cameras. Guess some now know what it feels like.
Ya aul want your cops to be gung ho and uncompromising, so maybe they are just reacting to the culture that surrounds them??:bang:
No , right right right on
SO, we got a minority getting pushed around by the po - lice, gee this is kinda familiar, oh but hold on, the minority this time is a bunch of middle class, middle aged chaps with flash cameras. Guess some now know what it feels like.
Ya aul want your cops to be gung ho and uncompromising, so maybe they are just reacting to the culture that surrounds them??:bang:
smiling gecko
pure dumb luck, my friend
hmm...
hmm...
patrickjames, please read the newspaper article again.
the photographer crossed a line that could not be crossed when he allegedly struck the city of charleston police officer.
it would have been a crime if the photographer had done the same thing to a civilian. true, no one was hurt. still, a crime was committed.
thank you for the morning chuckle with your posting of this :
"By the way, if you always photograph in an area, go introduce yourself to the head honcho cop and tell him you want to be left alone. You will then be left alone. The higher up you go in the chain of command the more respect will be shown to you because they understand that you, as a man, are above them."
btw, nobody is above the law. nobody is above law enforcement and law enforcement is not above anyone else. they enforce the laws that the legislators we elected passed.
breathe, relax and enjoy.
happy trails,
kenneth
__________________
hmm...
patrickjames, please read the newspaper article again.
the photographer crossed a line that could not be crossed when he allegedly struck the city of charleston police officer.
it would have been a crime if the photographer had done the same thing to a civilian. true, no one was hurt. still, a crime was committed.
thank you for the morning chuckle with your posting of this :
"By the way, if you always photograph in an area, go introduce yourself to the head honcho cop and tell him you want to be left alone. You will then be left alone. The higher up you go in the chain of command the more respect will be shown to you because they understand that you, as a man, are above them."
btw, nobody is above the law. nobody is above law enforcement and law enforcement is not above anyone else. they enforce the laws that the legislators we elected passed.
breathe, relax and enjoy.
happy trails,
kenneth
__________________