russelljtdyer
Writer
I've spent a few days researching flashes to use with my M-8.2 camera. I don't have a flash now, and I want to buy one to be able to take portraits outdoors for fill lighting, and maybe to take portraits at remote indoor locations. My preference is to buy a Metz flash. Before I place an order, though, I want to make sure I order everything I will need or want.
I realize that any flash with a decent amount of power to it will seem absurdly large with the Leica M-8.2. I accept that and plan to mount it on a camera bracket. I'm going to buy a CB Folding-SB by Custom Brackets. In addition to offsetting the flash, it will make steading the camera easier.
Since I have accepted that the overall size of my camera kit will be wider, higher, and heavier, I'm considering models larger than the Leica SF 24D or the Metz 24 AF-1. For the power I want, I think one of the Metz flashes with GN levels of 36 to 58 would be good. At this point, I'm considering the Metz 52 AF-1 digital (Olympus, Panasonic, Leica). I think this model will allow me plenty of settings, and it has a tilt- and swivel-head. I wish it was half its size and weight, but that's alright. Does anyone here use this model of Metz with a Leica digital camera and have an opinion about it? Do you have praises or criticisms of this flash?
I'd like to know mainly how I put all of it together. I know that I'll attach the bracket to the bottom of the camera, and the flash on the cold-shoe mount end of the bracket. How do I get the camera and flash to communicate properly with each other? Neither the camera, nor the flash have a PC connection port, but I could use adaptors on each end to add them. But that won't give me much data communication between the two devices. There are TTL cables, but I'm unsure which to use to connect them.
Metz makes TTL cables related to each type of flash. They have a version, the TCC-30 that works with Olympus and Panasonic cameras, but they don't mention Leica in the description of the product on their site. I've seen many places on their site and on dealer sites where a Metz flash that's made for all three, lists only Olympus, or just Olympus and Panasonic, when Leica is also supported. Does anyone on this forum have this cable and can verify that TTL on a Leica digital camera works with it?
Even if the cable doesn't give me control of the flash from the camera, can I put that flash model to automatic mode so that it can deal with the balancing of factors? Will the camera tell it my settings? Can I enter manually the camera's exposure settings in the flash so that the flash can decide on how to set power level, and other settings in the flash? Am I expecting too much out of a Metz flash off-camera with a Leica M8.2?
Is there anything else I should buy to get the most out of this flash? Please let me know.
Thanks,
Russell
I realize that any flash with a decent amount of power to it will seem absurdly large with the Leica M-8.2. I accept that and plan to mount it on a camera bracket. I'm going to buy a CB Folding-SB by Custom Brackets. In addition to offsetting the flash, it will make steading the camera easier.
Since I have accepted that the overall size of my camera kit will be wider, higher, and heavier, I'm considering models larger than the Leica SF 24D or the Metz 24 AF-1. For the power I want, I think one of the Metz flashes with GN levels of 36 to 58 would be good. At this point, I'm considering the Metz 52 AF-1 digital (Olympus, Panasonic, Leica). I think this model will allow me plenty of settings, and it has a tilt- and swivel-head. I wish it was half its size and weight, but that's alright. Does anyone here use this model of Metz with a Leica digital camera and have an opinion about it? Do you have praises or criticisms of this flash?
I'd like to know mainly how I put all of it together. I know that I'll attach the bracket to the bottom of the camera, and the flash on the cold-shoe mount end of the bracket. How do I get the camera and flash to communicate properly with each other? Neither the camera, nor the flash have a PC connection port, but I could use adaptors on each end to add them. But that won't give me much data communication between the two devices. There are TTL cables, but I'm unsure which to use to connect them.
Metz makes TTL cables related to each type of flash. They have a version, the TCC-30 that works with Olympus and Panasonic cameras, but they don't mention Leica in the description of the product on their site. I've seen many places on their site and on dealer sites where a Metz flash that's made for all three, lists only Olympus, or just Olympus and Panasonic, when Leica is also supported. Does anyone on this forum have this cable and can verify that TTL on a Leica digital camera works with it?
Even if the cable doesn't give me control of the flash from the camera, can I put that flash model to automatic mode so that it can deal with the balancing of factors? Will the camera tell it my settings? Can I enter manually the camera's exposure settings in the flash so that the flash can decide on how to set power level, and other settings in the flash? Am I expecting too much out of a Metz flash off-camera with a Leica M8.2?
Is there anything else I should buy to get the most out of this flash? Please let me know.
Thanks,
Russell
flash
Member
Unfortunately the 52AF1 will not provide TTL with the M8/8.2/9/M cameras. ALL the current Metz flashes marked for Leica are for the m4/3 and 4/3 standard that Leica made a couple of rebadged models for some time ago.
In TTL flashes you can use the Leica 24 or 58 and that's it. The 58 is a rebadges Metz 58AF2 with true TTL for the M series. But it only available with a Leica badge and costs nearly double the Metz 58AF2.
You can get psuedo TTL by using GNC mode with a Metz flash that uses the SCA 3502 (version 5) module. But the TTL preflash delay is long.
I've reverted to using a used Metz 54MZ3i with a SCA 3502 (5) in auto mode. ISO and focal length are passed through but aperture is set on the flash. It's also a decent manual flash.
If you do go with the Leica 58 flash you can use a Nikon TTL extension cord to get off camera TTL. The pins line up and it works as a pass through.
Gordon
In TTL flashes you can use the Leica 24 or 58 and that's it. The 58 is a rebadges Metz 58AF2 with true TTL for the M series. But it only available with a Leica badge and costs nearly double the Metz 58AF2.
You can get psuedo TTL by using GNC mode with a Metz flash that uses the SCA 3502 (version 5) module. But the TTL preflash delay is long.
I've reverted to using a used Metz 54MZ3i with a SCA 3502 (5) in auto mode. ISO and focal length are passed through but aperture is set on the flash. It's also a decent manual flash.
If you do go with the Leica 58 flash you can use a Nikon TTL extension cord to get off camera TTL. The pins line up and it works as a pass through.
Gordon
russelljtdyer
Writer
Bit Confusing
Bit Confusing
Thanks, Gordon for your response, for providing so much useful information. What you say makes sense to me. But I'm wondering if I'm misunderstanding something or if something has changed with Metz flashes in the past year of which you might be unaware.
On the Metz site and elsewhere, I've read that the 52 AF-1 digital (Olympus, Panasonic, Leica) flash will handle TTL metering with the Leica M8, M8.2, and M9 and newer models when it's seated in the hot shoe on the camera. Maybe that's, as you say, not true TTL. But if it is true TTL, I don't see why with the proper cable that the same TTL information cannot be passed between the camera and the flash. If that cable works on the Olympus and Panasonic cameras, it should work on the Leica for which the flash is made, since it's made for all three lines of cameras.
Have you tried using these newer Metz flashes with a Leica M-mount digital camera, and with that cable? I'm just wondering if anything has changed--I should say, that I'm hoping that something has changed--since you tried or investigated this flash.
-Russell
Bit Confusing
Thanks, Gordon for your response, for providing so much useful information. What you say makes sense to me. But I'm wondering if I'm misunderstanding something or if something has changed with Metz flashes in the past year of which you might be unaware.
On the Metz site and elsewhere, I've read that the 52 AF-1 digital (Olympus, Panasonic, Leica) flash will handle TTL metering with the Leica M8, M8.2, and M9 and newer models when it's seated in the hot shoe on the camera. Maybe that's, as you say, not true TTL. But if it is true TTL, I don't see why with the proper cable that the same TTL information cannot be passed between the camera and the flash. If that cable works on the Olympus and Panasonic cameras, it should work on the Leica for which the flash is made, since it's made for all three lines of cameras.
Have you tried using these newer Metz flashes with a Leica M-mount digital camera, and with that cable? I'm just wondering if anything has changed--I should say, that I'm hoping that something has changed--since you tried or investigated this flash.
-Russell
Jonlee
Newbie
I recently went through a similar query myself recently, and never did find a small flash with bounce capabilities and TTL support for my M8.
I think the info from this thread a few years back still applies: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1270969
According to Metz's camera compatibility chart, the Metz 52AF-1 that you quoted only supports TTL with Leica D-Lux 4 through 6 and V-Lux 2 through 4 cameras - not the M nor X-series bodies.
I own a Leica SF24D which is small and supports TTL on both my M6 TTL and M8, however it can't bounce. I end up hardly using it as I hate the direct flash look.
I ended up buying a Metz 20 C-2, which is actually working out pretty well so far. It was only $50 (used, but brand new condition). It supports Auto mode for F2.8 and F5.6 apertures. Its GN is only 65' (20m) at 35mm, but it's still powerful enough to bounce at limited range and ISO set to 320. The Metz 36 C-2 is more powerful with a GN of 98', but it comes at the cost of size - it's still relatively small compared to the likes of a Metz 52 or 58, but too big for my application.
It's also made me better understand how to use a flash in manual mode and not to rely on TTL, which can get tricked under certain conditions.
I think the info from this thread a few years back still applies: http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1270969
According to Metz's camera compatibility chart, the Metz 52AF-1 that you quoted only supports TTL with Leica D-Lux 4 through 6 and V-Lux 2 through 4 cameras - not the M nor X-series bodies.
I own a Leica SF24D which is small and supports TTL on both my M6 TTL and M8, however it can't bounce. I end up hardly using it as I hate the direct flash look.
I ended up buying a Metz 20 C-2, which is actually working out pretty well so far. It was only $50 (used, but brand new condition). It supports Auto mode for F2.8 and F5.6 apertures. Its GN is only 65' (20m) at 35mm, but it's still powerful enough to bounce at limited range and ISO set to 320. The Metz 36 C-2 is more powerful with a GN of 98', but it comes at the cost of size - it's still relatively small compared to the likes of a Metz 52 or 58, but too big for my application.
It's also made me better understand how to use a flash in manual mode and not to rely on TTL, which can get tricked under certain conditions.
flash
Member
I have had a Metz 58AF2 for Olympus/Panasonic/Leica. So yes, I have tried it. It definitely Does NOT provide TTL with the M, X or S series Leica's. Only the compacts (rebadged Panasonic's and the first Leica 4/3 body) are supported in TTL. It does make a good auto flash but with no information (ISO or focal length) passed from the camera. No current Metz flash except the 2 hammerhead models will provide TTL with the M series. For full TTL the only choices are the Leica flashes (which are made by but not sold through Metz).
And yes I do own a Nikon type cable which I use regularly with my old 54Mz3i in auto mode. All lens and ISO information is provided to the flash, in this case.
Gordon
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
Let me give you the straight dirt on this, since I have tried every combination that is supposed to work (except #5).
1. If all you are doing is buying a flash to use on automatic (A) mode, you might as well buy any Nikon TTL flash. The SB-20 is a pretty good choice as is an SB-28DX if you want swivel and bounce. The ready signal will trigger the sync speed on the M8, and in auto ISO, it should trigger 160 ISO. Sometimes I use a tiny SB-30 because it has several auto modes, several manual power factors, and it can be used as a slave.
2. You can use a Metz 45CL flash with an SCA300 cable and a Metz SCA340 (Nikon non-TTL) module. This presets exactly the same functionality as an SB-28DX, just with a ton more power. I own and use this combination.
3. The Leica SF-24D (which I have owned) is not a good use of money. It uses CR123A batteries, it can't tilt, it can't swivel, and its controls leave much to be desired. From this position on down the list, the camera will transmit to the flash the ISO information - but since the M series can't tell the flash what aperture has been selected, getting an accurate max distance indication depends on your selecting the right f/stop on the flash. This one has a noticeable double-flash.
4. The Metz 54 series with SCA 3502 M5 (which I have owned) does have a double-pop in the pre flash. No exposure compensation. No using both heads with TTL. Controls are also a b*tch to keep straight (unless you like click wheels that can also be pressed).
5. The Metz 76MZ - no one has the money or inclination to buy one of these, but it theoretically works with the M8/M9.
6. The Leica SF-58. Sad to say, this one completely rocks. You can't get high-speed sync on an M8 or M9 - but you can on an M240. Because Leica's and Nikon's pinouts are similar, you can also use this flash in A mode on a Nikon. I just got one of these. Used, you can get them for $450-500, and it's a flash that you will have difficulty outgrowing. Just forego a month of cafe cappuccinos in Milan, and you'll have no difficulty affording one.
Dante
1. If all you are doing is buying a flash to use on automatic (A) mode, you might as well buy any Nikon TTL flash. The SB-20 is a pretty good choice as is an SB-28DX if you want swivel and bounce. The ready signal will trigger the sync speed on the M8, and in auto ISO, it should trigger 160 ISO. Sometimes I use a tiny SB-30 because it has several auto modes, several manual power factors, and it can be used as a slave.
2. You can use a Metz 45CL flash with an SCA300 cable and a Metz SCA340 (Nikon non-TTL) module. This presets exactly the same functionality as an SB-28DX, just with a ton more power. I own and use this combination.
3. The Leica SF-24D (which I have owned) is not a good use of money. It uses CR123A batteries, it can't tilt, it can't swivel, and its controls leave much to be desired. From this position on down the list, the camera will transmit to the flash the ISO information - but since the M series can't tell the flash what aperture has been selected, getting an accurate max distance indication depends on your selecting the right f/stop on the flash. This one has a noticeable double-flash.
4. The Metz 54 series with SCA 3502 M5 (which I have owned) does have a double-pop in the pre flash. No exposure compensation. No using both heads with TTL. Controls are also a b*tch to keep straight (unless you like click wheels that can also be pressed).
5. The Metz 76MZ - no one has the money or inclination to buy one of these, but it theoretically works with the M8/M9.
6. The Leica SF-58. Sad to say, this one completely rocks. You can't get high-speed sync on an M8 or M9 - but you can on an M240. Because Leica's and Nikon's pinouts are similar, you can also use this flash in A mode on a Nikon. I just got one of these. Used, you can get them for $450-500, and it's a flash that you will have difficulty outgrowing. Just forego a month of cafe cappuccinos in Milan, and you'll have no difficulty affording one.
Dante
Scrambler
Well-known
This is of some interest for me only because I can see an M8 or M9 in my future. I take it that these cameras no longer have the true TTL function of the M6TTL or M7? That instead they use some sort of pre-flash measurement like a dSLR?
My understanding was that Leica pinouts were the same as Nikon, so Metz Nikon module/s would work. You could then use the Metz SCA300 extension cable to get off-camera flash. I am going this road with my CLE (with Minolta TTL SCA module) - not tried it yet though. Module should arrive today or tomorrow. I have an older ("Analogue") Metz flash.
EDIT - just checked the METZ website - they list an SCA 3502 adapter specifically for Leica M and R, compatible with digital and TTL, according to Metz anyway.
My understanding was that Leica pinouts were the same as Nikon, so Metz Nikon module/s would work. You could then use the Metz SCA300 extension cable to get off-camera flash. I am going this road with my CLE (with Minolta TTL SCA module) - not tried it yet though. Module should arrive today or tomorrow. I have an older ("Analogue") Metz flash.
EDIT - just checked the METZ website - they list an SCA 3502 adapter specifically for Leica M and R, compatible with digital and TTL, according to Metz anyway.
swoop
Well-known
oops. I posted this in the wrong thread. But this is a list I compiled of small flashes that work well with Leica's both film and digital.
http://www.rangefinderworkshop.com/?p=346
http://www.rangefinderworkshop.com/?p=346
Dugby
Newbie
I may be new here, but have been lurking in the shadows....
I use a Metz 40MZ-3i with an SCA3205 on my M240
This flash has two reflectors, I direct the main reflector (90%) to the ceiling for bounce, and the second reflector does fill-in (10%).
It has to be set for fully auto. Though it does have a zoom head to adjust main reflector to match wide through to tele lenses.
I am very happy with the 40MZ-3i, and it has a much lower profile than the "20 C-2"
I use a Metz 40MZ-3i with an SCA3205 on my M240
This flash has two reflectors, I direct the main reflector (90%) to the ceiling for bounce, and the second reflector does fill-in (10%).
It has to be set for fully auto. Though it does have a zoom head to adjust main reflector to match wide through to tele lenses.
I am very happy with the 40MZ-3i, and it has a much lower profile than the "20 C-2"