TareqPhoto
The Survivor
Hey all,
I am thinking about which MF rangefinder camera to get?
I have MF SLRs but i feel i want to get something smaller, i love Leice even i don't have but the metal body when i tested my friend's Leica made me to think i should stay with MF and no 35mm, still i feel the pics quality of MF whatever is superior to any 35mm even Leica, and the weight of my SLR MF are .... you know.
So what do you recommend me?
I am thinking about which MF rangefinder camera to get?
I have MF SLRs but i feel i want to get something smaller, i love Leice even i don't have but the metal body when i tested my friend's Leica made me to think i should stay with MF and no 35mm, still i feel the pics quality of MF whatever is superior to any 35mm even Leica, and the weight of my SLR MF are .... you know.
So what do you recommend me?
Matus
Well-known
Tareq,
There is wide range of options, so you could let us know what you are after - what are your preferences, and also how much you plan to invest. But basically all MF RF cameras share rather slow lenses and not very close focusing (1m wth standard lens) - with a few exceptions (Fuji GA645 - AF 6x4.5) - something to take into account when comparing to MF SLR.
Truth to be told - if you are "used to"image quality from MF, you may not be satisfied by 35mm - especially for larger prints.
Let us know more, than it will be easier to make a suggestion.
Just one appetizer - have a look to following link for a 4000 spi scan from slide from Fuji GA645 (AF fixed 65/4 lens):
http://digitalcopy24.de/grossformat.html (bottom of the page)
There is wide range of options, so you could let us know what you are after - what are your preferences, and also how much you plan to invest. But basically all MF RF cameras share rather slow lenses and not very close focusing (1m wth standard lens) - with a few exceptions (Fuji GA645 - AF 6x4.5) - something to take into account when comparing to MF SLR.
Truth to be told - if you are "used to"image quality from MF, you may not be satisfied by 35mm - especially for larger prints.
Let us know more, than it will be easier to make a suggestion.
Just one appetizer - have a look to following link for a 4000 spi scan from slide from Fuji GA645 (AF fixed 65/4 lens):
http://digitalcopy24.de/grossformat.html (bottom of the page)
You are probably right about image quality MF vs 35mm. The advantage of 35mm is the availability of fast lenses.
The Mamiya 6 and 7 RF cameras always tempt me. Fuji has a series of 645 RF cameras. There is the new Bessa III/Fuji ? folder which is current production but in limited supply. And of course about 46 zillion classic folders you can explore.
The Mamiya 6 and 7 RF cameras always tempt me. Fuji has a series of 645 RF cameras. There is the new Bessa III/Fuji ? folder which is current production but in limited supply. And of course about 46 zillion classic folders you can explore.
TareqPhoto
The Survivor
In fact i can't tell what reasons or preferences i need to get any of MF RF, but let's say i am not really after so fat lens, anything will be fine, the budget can be around $1000 and if less that will be great, if little more no problem.
In fact i was looking at Mamiya 7II, but i remember that it is 6x7 and i have RZII which is 6x7, so i was thinking if to get Fuji 690III so i have 6x9, 6x8 is in between so i just go to 6x9 directly better, someone recommended me Mamiya 7II to be the best MF RF out there, but i want to get something rather than 6x6 or 6x7, but at the end i am still not sure which i should get anyway, all can be fine and serving me well.
In fact i was looking at Mamiya 7II, but i remember that it is 6x7 and i have RZII which is 6x7, so i was thinking if to get Fuji 690III so i have 6x9, 6x8 is in between so i just go to 6x9 directly better, someone recommended me Mamiya 7II to be the best MF RF out there, but i want to get something rather than 6x6 or 6x7, but at the end i am still not sure which i should get anyway, all can be fine and serving me well.
Matus
Well-known
OK, if you are after 6x9 (or 6x8 - FUji made both) than you can either choose the GW690 (90mm lens) or GSW690 (65mm lens). The 'GW' was also made in 680 and 670 versions. Still - make sure that this camera is what you are after - it is quite big. Optics is reportedly very good.
There was also the Fuji G690 (GL690) that was the ancestor of the fixed lenses Fujis. Lenses available are 50, 65, 100, 150, 180, though the 50 is hard to find and expensive.
Look here for details:
http://dantestella.com/technical/g690bl.html
For the price - the G(S)W690 cameras are priced around $1000 for the last versions (III). To lear more about them have a look here:
http://dantestella.com/technical/gw.html
http://dantestella.com/technical/gsw690iii-res.html
Mamiya 7 is quite a different camera. It offers AE, exchangeable lenses. It
is also quite a bit expensive - you will have hard time to fine Mamiya 7 with 80 mm lens for $1000. Mamiya 7II would cost more.
I hope that members with hands-on experience with these cameras will reply.
There was also the Fuji G690 (GL690) that was the ancestor of the fixed lenses Fujis. Lenses available are 50, 65, 100, 150, 180, though the 50 is hard to find and expensive.
Look here for details:
http://dantestella.com/technical/g690bl.html
For the price - the G(S)W690 cameras are priced around $1000 for the last versions (III). To lear more about them have a look here:
http://dantestella.com/technical/gw.html
http://dantestella.com/technical/gsw690iii-res.html
Mamiya 7 is quite a different camera. It offers AE, exchangeable lenses. It
is also quite a bit expensive - you will have hard time to fine Mamiya 7 with 80 mm lens for $1000. Mamiya 7II would cost more.
I hope that members with hands-on experience with these cameras will reply.
Steve M.
Veteran
I prefer the imaging of classic cameras. German if I can get them. You'd be hard pressed to find better image quality that a Bessa RF w/ Heliar, a Bessa II w/ Heliar or a Super Isolette/Speedex w/ Solinar. The Voigtlanders can usually be found in working condition, the Agfa/Anscos will probably need a full CLA as they're more complicated cameras.
oftheherd
Veteran
The old folders do perform well. And if you haven't excluded non-RF and non-interchangable lenses, there are a lot of old folders you could try. Of couse, as Steve M. pointed out, there are also old RF folders that give great results. You might want to try some of them first to see if a modern folder is something you are looking for. The old folders tend to hold their price well, so if you are certain you like folders, you can sell them without much if any loss of money.
There are also a lot of older RF cameras worth considering. Koni Omega and Plaubel Machina come to mind. Personally, I have a Mamiya Super Press 23. The Mamiya Su[er Press/Universal are system cameras. The have interchangable back and lenses. Lenses from 50mm wide to 250mm long. Backs in 6x7, 6x9, and one that gives 645/6x6/6x9, if you can find all the masks for the back and viewfinder. You can get extention tubes and ground glass backs. The Press 23 has a bellows back for perspective control, but I think few people ever use that feature much if at all. For you budget you can get a Press 23 or Universal, and a couple or three lenses. You should save enough for a CLA as these are old cameras and lenses, and depending on use, storage, and past CLA history, the lenses may need that. The bodies and backs may, but are much less likely to.
Food for thought.
There are also a lot of older RF cameras worth considering. Koni Omega and Plaubel Machina come to mind. Personally, I have a Mamiya Super Press 23. The Mamiya Su[er Press/Universal are system cameras. The have interchangable back and lenses. Lenses from 50mm wide to 250mm long. Backs in 6x7, 6x9, and one that gives 645/6x6/6x9, if you can find all the masks for the back and viewfinder. You can get extention tubes and ground glass backs. The Press 23 has a bellows back for perspective control, but I think few people ever use that feature much if at all. For you budget you can get a Press 23 or Universal, and a couple or three lenses. You should save enough for a CLA as these are old cameras and lenses, and depending on use, storage, and past CLA history, the lenses may need that. The bodies and backs may, but are much less likely to.
Food for thought.
TareqPhoto
The Survivor
As usual, when asking this kind of question with no much details maybe many of you will give different answers, and if i can't decide what i want from RF camera then i can't tell which one is suited me or good enough for me, many options you gave me are all tempting somehow, and i don't know most of those options as i didn't see pics of all those RF cameras to see and know their specifications, and more important where to get them as i don't use ebay at all and maybe other websites such as KEH.com don't have all those cameras available.
Matus
Well-known
What about starting with a few basic questions:
- what kind of image quality you expect? Pin sharp up to 24x24" or dreamy for portraits with lot of "character"?
- what is the purpose? Travel, landscape, portraits?
- do you need/want more than 1 lens option?
- for 1 lens option - do you just need a "normal" lens (like 50mm in 35mm format) or you want wide/long instead?
- do you need a built-in light meter?
Old folders all have just "normal" leses - mostly 75-85 in 6x6 and around 100 in 6x9. The fixed lens Fujis have 65mm & 90mm (like 28 and 35 in 35mm).
And do not forget - if none of what was said above does not really ring a bell, you may just not need (or not really want) an MF rangefinder. In that case feel free NOT not buy one
Some more info:
- of you want to get an idea of the older folders, check this webapage oput: http://certo6.com/ Guy running the page restores and sells old folders and have quite nice descriptions of several models.
- check out http://www.butkus.org/chinon/ for number of manuals - they all contain specifications
- what kind of image quality you expect? Pin sharp up to 24x24" or dreamy for portraits with lot of "character"?
- what is the purpose? Travel, landscape, portraits?
- do you need/want more than 1 lens option?
- for 1 lens option - do you just need a "normal" lens (like 50mm in 35mm format) or you want wide/long instead?
- do you need a built-in light meter?
Old folders all have just "normal" leses - mostly 75-85 in 6x6 and around 100 in 6x9. The fixed lens Fujis have 65mm & 90mm (like 28 and 35 in 35mm).
And do not forget - if none of what was said above does not really ring a bell, you may just not need (or not really want) an MF rangefinder. In that case feel free NOT not buy one
Some more info:
- of you want to get an idea of the older folders, check this webapage oput: http://certo6.com/ Guy running the page restores and sells old folders and have quite nice descriptions of several models.
- check out http://www.butkus.org/chinon/ for number of manuals - they all contain specifications
TareqPhoto
The Survivor
What about starting with a few basic questions:
- what kind of image quality you expect? Pin sharp up to 24x24" or dreamy for portraits with lot of "character"?
- what is the purpose? Travel, landscape, portraits?
- do you need/want more than 1 lens option?
- for 1 lens option - do you just need a "normal" lens (like 50mm in 35mm format) or you want wide/long instead?
- do you need a built-in light meter?
Old folders all have just "normal" leses - mostly 75-85 in 6x6 and around 100 in 6x9. The fixed lens Fujis have 65mm & 90mm (like 28 and 35 in 35mm).
And do not forget - if none of what was said above does not really ring a bell, you may just not need (or not really want) an MF rangefinder. In that case feel free NOT not buy one
Some more info:
- of you want to get an idea of the older folders, check this webapage oput: http://certo6.com/ Guy running the page restores and sells old folders and have quite nice descriptions of several models.
- check out http://www.butkus.org/chinon/ for number of manuals - they all contain specifications
Hey Matus,
Let me answer your questions:
- I want sharp az razor or sharp enough, i like dreamy effect but not much
- Portraits and candid mostly, sometimes cityscape or urban.
- 1-2 lenses only, for portraits i tend to go with 1 lens for closeups head shots and shoulder, and sometimes for full body but in environment.
- I think for portraits i should go with standard or long.
- It will be a bonus to have a built-in light meter, but if not it is not a big deal, i got used to my MF SLRs without a light meter built in and i have a light meter anyway which i should use often.
My friend using his Leica M6 for portraits and candid, even he bought Hasselblad if he tried mine he still use RF for this kind of photos, and i also prefer to use lighter MF for portraits in general outdoors or in the city around rather than holding those bombs and tanks around.
Matus
Well-known
OK, so it sounds that you are looking for a modern camera. However there are differences between MF and 35mm rangefinders that will keep you getting the same images just on larger film. Firstly - lenses are slow - f/4.0 or f/4.5 (depending on focal length). While larger format does decrease the DOF, not as much as you can get form f/1.4 - f/2.0 lenses with 35mm RF.
MF RF lenses do not focus close enough to give you tigh head and shoulder shots - you get 1.0m minimal focusing distance with 80mm and 1.8m minimal focusing distance with the 150mm with Mamiya 7. Compare that to 0.7m (1.0m) for 50(90) lenses for Leica.
To me the closest candidate would be Mamiya 6 or 7 or even Bronica RF645. In case of the Bronica the 100mm lens focuses down to about 1.2m even though it is specified to 1.8 (like the 135mm lens).
Best would be of course to try one before you buy. RF is quite different to SLR.
MF RF lenses do not focus close enough to give you tigh head and shoulder shots - you get 1.0m minimal focusing distance with 80mm and 1.8m minimal focusing distance with the 150mm with Mamiya 7. Compare that to 0.7m (1.0m) for 50(90) lenses for Leica.
To me the closest candidate would be Mamiya 6 or 7 or even Bronica RF645. In case of the Bronica the 100mm lens focuses down to about 1.2m even though it is specified to 1.8 (like the 135mm lens).
Best would be of course to try one before you buy. RF is quite different to SLR.
TareqPhoto
The Survivor
Matus
Well-known
And how or where i can try before i buy?
That is a tough one. I fear there are not too many shops with used equipment in your area.
Still - in some cases on eBay (I know , I know .. ) if the gear is being sold by a company they do offer 14 or 30 day "no questions asked" warranty. At least I have seen this on german eBay. Of course you loose the double shipping if you decide to send it back. So that could work - at least in theory.
A better option could be to try to locate another photographer whoom you could meet locally and try his gear.
Before I ordered a Mamiya 6 (like a week ago) I just had Mamiya 7 in my hands for 5 minutes in Paris (during a business trip).
Another option would be to ask your friend to let you shoot a few shots with his Leica - make a few candid portraits and see whether 1m of minimal focusing distance with 50 mm lens would work.
But truth to be told - if you just decide to pick one from local classifieds here and find out that it is not your cup of tea - you can again resell it with little or no loss.
but that is pretty much all I am able to come up with now ...
TareqPhoto
The Survivor
That is a tough one. I fear there are not too many shops with used equipment in your area.
Still - in some cases on eBay (I know , I know .. ) if the gear is being sold by a company they do offer 14 or 30 day "no questions asked" warranty. At least I have seen this on german eBay. Of course you loose the double shipping if you decide to send it back. So that could work - at least in theory.
A better option could be to try to locate another photographer whoom you could meet locally and try his gear.
Before I ordered a Mamiya 6 (like a week ago) I just had Mamiya 7 in my hands for 5 minutes in Paris (during a business trip).
Another option would be to ask your friend to let you shoot a few shots with his Leica - make a few candid portraits and see whether 1m of minimal focusing distance with 50 mm lens would work.
But truth to be told - if you just decide to pick one from local classifieds here and find out that it is not your cup of tea - you can again resell it with little or no loss.
but that is pretty much all I am able to come up with now ...
I am so impressed of the Mamiya 7 photos quality, i saw the pics and they are phenomenal, so i am sure i will be happy with Mamiya 7, but i will keep looking for 6x9 camera, so should i get 6x9 and don't look back or should i get both [Mamiya 7 and another 6x9 camera]?
I can afford up to $2500, but i will go with one option now and later i can add one more.
Armoured
Well-known
Honestly, I don't find the MF rangefinder I've used - the Mamiya 7 - to be that much smaller or more convenient than MF SLR. It's a LOT quieter - almost disturbingly so after the thwack of the SLR mirror.
Just personal opinion, but I find the rolleicord/rolleiflex style TLR to be the smallest, most easily handled format for MF - and just as quiet. I haven't used folders more than once or twice though, never got used to them. They're also unobtrusive, probably because of the waist level - any camera as big as a Mamiya 7 held at eye level will be noticed.
Mamiya 7 has fantastic results, but the handling is very different in feel than a Leica - it's not just 'the same but bigger', the size makes it feel very different.
You probably won't lose that much if you shop carefully and resell, but if the money is an issue, you may want to try it out first.
RANDALL
Newbie
Linhof 220
Linhof 220
It's a lot like a big old microphone. The camera's handle with the shutter is a pain to carry as it is not removable .. but an absolute joy to use. If the handle was removable it would be a very small 6x7. The viewfinder is the very best you'll discover .. 1:1. You will be overjoyed to use both eyes! You will like this camera! The best part is the lens .. today's lens can only dream of the "bokeh" that this one has at f3.5 and at f/5.6 to f11 there is not a sharper lens out there. ALPA has previously brought this f3.5 lens back for their MF ( not sure if it's still available). I've personally used very many MF cameras over the last forty years and have sold them all but this one. Google before you make any decisions.
Linhof 220
It's a lot like a big old microphone. The camera's handle with the shutter is a pain to carry as it is not removable .. but an absolute joy to use. If the handle was removable it would be a very small 6x7. The viewfinder is the very best you'll discover .. 1:1. You will be overjoyed to use both eyes! You will like this camera! The best part is the lens .. today's lens can only dream of the "bokeh" that this one has at f3.5 and at f/5.6 to f11 there is not a sharper lens out there. ALPA has previously brought this f3.5 lens back for their MF ( not sure if it's still available). I've personally used very many MF cameras over the last forty years and have sold them all but this one. Google before you make any decisions.
TareqPhoto
The Survivor
I searched and googled, nothing i did find, i mean no answers, just i have to decide myself depends on your posts.
EdSawyer
Established
Mamiya 7
Mamiya 7
It really sounds like Mamiya 7 is your best choice. I have an RZ67 with 4 lenses and other stuff, a mamiya 7 with everything, and a GSW690III and GW670III. They are all great but of the bunch, I think the Mamiya 7 is the best, and certainly for what you want. I don't miss the 6x9 negs of the fuji (which are only 56x82mm anyway, not 90mm) all that much, and while the others are excellent the M7 really has the best lenses of all of them I think.
With careful shopping on ebay you can definitely find a Mamiya7 + 80mm for $1k, I think.
-Ed
Mamiya 7
It really sounds like Mamiya 7 is your best choice. I have an RZ67 with 4 lenses and other stuff, a mamiya 7 with everything, and a GSW690III and GW670III. They are all great but of the bunch, I think the Mamiya 7 is the best, and certainly for what you want. I don't miss the 6x9 negs of the fuji (which are only 56x82mm anyway, not 90mm) all that much, and while the others are excellent the M7 really has the best lenses of all of them I think.
With careful shopping on ebay you can definitely find a Mamiya7 + 80mm for $1k, I think.
-Ed
picker77
Established
For portability, size, accurate metering, great viewfinder display, sensible control layout, and ease of use the Bronica RF645 with 65mm standard lens is very hard to beat, especially for the price at not much more than $1000. I really like mine, it fits perfectly in between my Zeiss ZI and RB67 for both portability and format size. Very sharp lens, too. One of my favorite cameras.
MT4
Member
Mamiya 7 / 7II + Mamiya N 150mm/4.5 Lens + Mamiya N 65mm/4 Lens.
Enjy
Enjy