Mic Drop Moment: M10-D with thumb lever

[splitimageview]

Thought for a moment I was in a Facebook thread.

"I blame Trump!"

 

[raid]

I thought you had written "I blame the Thumb (grip)"!

 

[willie_901]

Reactive, Proactive or No Support At All

Reactive, Proactive or No Support At All

Name 1 company who has replaced a defective component in a camera for free well after its warranty has expired? I can't think of one besides Leica...

Well, that distinction is not necessarily an achievement.

Did Leica have a choice?

Let's review:

• The M9 sensor assembly has an inherent corrosion issue. Leica silently replaces them for free. Customers are unaware there is an inherent design flaw. This benefits customers and Leica.
• As time goes on, more and more customers have this problem.
• At some point Leica informally blames customers for improper sensor cleaning methods. This may not have been a widespread practice.
• Then Leica decides to end, or limit, the M9 replacement policy.
• The press and social media react.
• Leica reverses the policy.

If Leica had not reversed the policy, their reputation would suffer. It is possible they would have to settle class action lawsuits. In the end, the economic consequences from refusing to remediate a basic design error (using a IR filter film that reacts with water vapor) could be higher than fixing the problem for free. A reactive policy was terminated. Then a proactive policy solved the problem. The customers and Leica benefit.

A M9 sensor cracking issue was much less common and was also solved with an internal policy of free replacement. Similarly, dead pixel columns are addressed via firmware for free. Leica also offers reasonable upgrade options for customers with M9 sensor assembly issues. These are also proactive policies.

Consider Nikon.

For about a decade customers had to pay extra for Nikon's proprietary post-production software to completely correct Nikon lens deficiencies. Third-party software platforms offered reverse-engineered solutions. In some cases these worked as well as Nikon's, in some cases they didn't, in all cases some corrections were not available. Customers had to buy the lens and then pay extra for software to correct optical issues. Also, it was very rare for Nikon to improve product firmware or add new features via firmware updates. This benefits Nikon in the short term.

Consider Canon.

Magic Lantern created a successful business selling firmware that adds features to Canon cameras. The Canon firmware is not modified or replaced. Separate firmware interacts with the Canon system in-camera. To benefit from the full potential a Canon DLSR's hardware, customers had to buy and install third-party firmware. Canon makes no effort at all to benefit customers.

Neither Nikon or Canon reacted to customer needs. I think this is much worse than a defensive, reactive strategy.

Consider FUJIFILM.

FUJIFILM uses a proactive Kaizen (literally 'change-good') approach. When a new body or lens is first release they are 'good'. When problems are solved or new features are added via free firmware updates, they become 'more good'. Customers benefit, so FUJIFILM benefits. Interestingly, Kaizen has been criticized by potential customers who claim ]Kaizen does not help customers at all. Instead, FUJIFILM customers are abused because they beta-test FUJIFILM products for free.

I prefer Leica and FUJIFILM's approaches.

Is it bashing to point put Nikon and Canon's customer neglect?

 

[airfrogusmc]

And how about you? Any compliment or discussion of Leica brings a snipe about how they've mistreated you, personally, over and over and over again.

Me thinks the pot is calling the kettle black here. If it's "as simple as that", well, you can stop your bashing and I'll enjoy a bit less vitriol on the forum. We can each reside in our separate realities and use whatever equipment we like.

G

Agree G. This is a point I made in an earlier thread. To continue you could change a few words and go into any camera specific forum and find the same type of attacks on a new camera. When a company comes out with a new model there are always those that wont be happy. Not enough this or too much of that or it's too expensive etc.

de leon you say that the M 10 is 5 times more is wrong. The M 10 should be compared to the price of other top of the line cameras from Nikon or Canon and the price of the M 10 is a little more but I remember when Leica M was more than double the price of the top of the line Nikanon.

As far as the technology if one doesn't jump off of that gadget go round you will be buying new cameras every 6 months and most of those gadgets are not going to make better photographs. In fact here is a great quote by Weston made well over a half century ago:

"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston

So if one is changing equipment with every upgrade you certainly never spend enough time with it to master it.

We get it de leon. You have a real bone to pick with Leica and probably for good reason. No company can be 100% to all. And we have seen this over and over again in most every Leica thread here. We get it. You had a real issue. And I will agree that Leica's service needs work. A lot of it. And I have had cameras there for months on end.

In fact if it is a mechanical thing like focus adjust Don at DAG gets my business. But does your complaint need to always show up in almost every Leica thread? Maybe you should be sending Leica Germany as many complaint letters and you do posts here. I mean if you de leon really want to change things complaining here might not be the best venue. Again we get it. I got it fully after the second time I read your complaint.

In my opinion a much better away to address this here. Maybe it would be start a thread with your complaints and send a link to Leica of the thread.

I have 4 Leica M digitals and have had a lot less problems with them than I ever had with my Canons. I had a complete shutter failure while doing work for NATO in 2012. I had many other issues with Canons but I will say that CPS is a wonderful service but if that service is with a camera you don't work well with then it is kinda of a dead issue. Does anyone remember mirrorgate with Canon (the mirror would just fall out off the camera) ha ha. Every maker has had issues.

Having said that I can only think of how great a company Leica could be if their service was stepped up to a level of say CPS.

I am a full time pro and as one we never have just one camera body. You learn early in your career that you need backup for the backup so it is usually several bodies. I will be getting another M 10 (not the P or the new M-D) and that should be it until I finally retire in a few years. The M 10 is everything I need in a camera.

That's it from me because this is running in a big circle that will never end. Anyone that wants to continue the conversation can PM me. But with Leica M I finally had a digital alternative to everything else out there. I am glad that the M 10 is 24mps. I am glad that it doesn't have video. I really like the ISO dial. It is a camera that lets me have full control and gets out of the way and lets me create. Many aren't going to like it and that's fine. If the way you see and work needs more from a camera then there are plenty of those options out there. But again it is nice to have a real digital alternative. And if you don't like any of Leica's offerings or have huge issue with service don't buy Leica.

And willie pointed it out May 2. 3 times and move on. When it shows up all the time it is more than pointing out a problem.

I am out.

 

[ptpdprinter]

de leon you say that the M 10 is 5 times more is wrong. The M 10 should be compared to the price of other top of the line cameras from Nikon or Canon and the price of the M 10 is a little more but I remember when Leica M was more than double the price of the top of then line Nikanon.

It's an apples to oranges comparison. The M10 is a $2000 camera with a $6000 rangefinder mechanism. If you want a rangefinder, it the only game in town and the extra $6000 is worth it. If not, well, there are a lot less expensive alternatives. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

 

[airfrogusmc]

Yep my money my choice and there are plenty more just like me. Again I choose Leica M because Leica M fits the way I see and work period. I can buy WHATEVER camera I need to do my job, my work pays for it all, and that's what I choose because as I said before it gets out of my way.

Again Leicas have always been EXPENSIVE. You need to get over it. Cameras shouldn't be like buying a car. The one with the most stuff isn't always the best value especially if it doesn't work well for you.

I get it. You want bells and whistled galore and there is nothing wrong with that. You have a lot of those out there already Buy one. And if you are mad that Leica is so expensive maybe one of the big two or someone else might see the market that Leica has found.

Canon and Nikon have been losing market for several years now and Leica has been gaining. Who's doing what right? Is it the Nikanons with all the bells and whistles that keep separating the photographer farther and farther from the process? Looks like maybe not.

Those cameras are clearly not for me and on that I am really out.

Again if you want real discussion instead of an endless circle then PM me.

 

[raid]

Well, that distinction is not necessarily an achievement.

Let's review:

A M9 sensor cracking issue was much less common and was also solved with an internal policy of free replacement. Similarly, dead pixel columns are addressed via firmware for free. Leica also offers reasonable upgrade options for customers with M9 sensor assembly issues. These are also proactive policies.

Leica asked me to send payment of $500 a month ago to cover the expenses for repairing dead pixel columns. They did not suggest a (free) firmware fix for it.

 

[Emile de Leon]

We get it de leon. You have a real bone to pick with Leica

Like I said many x's before..I really don't give a sheeit...as I don't own a digital Leica..no bone to pick here..unless I think about the lens they ruined..went in for gratis service mint..came back w/polish marks..I saw them do it right in front of me..couldn't believe it..so careless they are..
But this is all just just internet talk..so no need to get polarizing about it..
For some Leica is a sacred cow..and just don't want to hear anything more about it..for the negative..even if the truth..
So they attack the messenger..
But there are way more people here that have a bigger bone to pick w/Leica than I do..real $$ spent..and bailed as fast as they could..ran away..
Not their fault for the problems..fault was 100% Leicas..but they believed the myth..and ponied up..only to be disappointed..
I didn't invest thousands in the bodies..lenses yes..but not bodies..and I'm thankful for that..so I luv Leica lenses..but not their service record for their bodies...so I stay away..to avoid problems..if that is a bone to pick..well so be it..

 

[JeffS7444]

IME (at least up until 2011) new Leica products were more likely to need at least some after-sales support than any other make that I have owned. I hope this situation has since improved. But I were to buy a new Leica product today, I'd want it unbox it and give it at least a cursory examination before leaving the store (does camera body power up, do lenses focus properly etc) whereas with other brands, I'm more confident that a product in an unopened box will be fine.

 

[David Hughes]

As Godfrey says "My issue with the M9 and M-P 240 was the fact that the small M body fitted with a relatively large LCD left my (largish) hands with too little gripping area to comfortably use the camera the way I wanted to, and certainly the way I always used my Leica M film cameras. The buttons, the four way controller, and that big screen simply get in the way, to me, and make it pretty commonplace that I accidentally hit a button and then have to figure out what to undo."

Those buttons etc, etc are a real PITA and it's not just Leica that do it. I have often wondered how I'm supposed to take a decent photo either waving the camera in the air or else slowly picking it up and carefully looking through the view-finder. I never have this problem with the M2.

As for the thumb rest; if I need one for the right hand then why not for the left hand? And why not a little bulge or two on the front to nake them easier to grip? The digital range could have moved in a different direct as the IIIa moved to the IIIc and the Barnaks moved to the M's...

Regards, David

 

[ptpdprinter]

As Godfrey says "My issue with the M9 and M-P 240 was the fact that the small M body fitted with a relatively large LCD left my (largish) hands with too little gripping area to comfortably use the camera the way I wanted to, and certainly the way I always used my Leica M film cameras. The buttons, the four way controller, and that big screen simply get in the way, to me, and make it pretty commonplace that I accidentally hit a button and then have to figure out what to undo."

Those buttons etc, etc are a real PITA and it's not just Leica that do it. I have often wondered how I'm supposed to take a decent photo either waving the camera in the air or else slowly picking it up and carefully looking through the view-finder. I never have this problem with the M2.

As for the thumb rest; if I need one for the right hand then why not for the left hand? And why not a little bulge or two on the front to nake them easier to grip? The digital range could have moved in a different direct as the IIIa moved to the IIIc and the Barnaks moved to the M's.

Most cameras allow you to disable the buttons. I never use them anyway, but they were never a problem to begin with. Hands come in different sizes and photographers hold their cameras in different ways, so YMMV.

 

[splitimageview]

Every camera manufacturer has had issues from time to time. Sure, it would be ideal if no manufacturer ever had any warranty problems, but it's just not realistic to expect that. Oftentimes issues aren't discovered until there are many units in the field, with no amount of alpha/beta testing revealing such problems.

It's the support after the issue is found, and how quickly they are resolved, that separates the brands.

Leica, being a premium brand with premium prices, should have premium support with ultra-fast turnaround.

Leica has exhibited poor support, with outrageous lead times, and poor communication. In my case, I even had one of Leica's largest dealers pushing on them from behind the scenes, and a minor problem with a Leica Q that was promised a 3 week turn, ended up taking 8 months. I wonder how long it would have taken without the dealer leverage?

Leica quality control has also been suspect, ranging all the way from loose strap lugs (!), to ISO switch failures, and many others that have been well-publicized in recent years. Not to mention the long-term issues mentioned above regarding the M9 sensors.

The so-called 'pro' brands set the service/support standard, and Leica should be *at least* as good as those, if not even better, considering their position in the marketplace.

 

[ptpdprinter]

The so-called 'pro' brands set the service/support standard, and Leica should be *at least* as good as those, if not even better, considering their position in the marketplace.

The service department in Wetzlar seems adequately staffed and responsive. Leica just doesn't want to make the investment for the North American market.

 

[Godfrey]

...
Those buttons etc, etc are a real PITA and it's not just Leica that do it. I have often wondered how I'm supposed to take a decent photo either waving the camera in the air or else slowly picking it up and carefully looking through the view-finder. I never have this problem with the M2.
...

Most cameras allow you to disable the buttons. I never use them anyway, but they were never a problem to begin with. Hands come in different sizes and photographers hold their cameras in different ways, so YMMV.

One of the impressively responsive ways that Leica improved the CL was with firmware 2.0 when they put a "disable all controls" toggle in as a long press on the left dial's button; only the shutter release and the toggle button stay active. Without that, I am constantly tweaking something or other as I walk holding the camera, and then having to correct what I tweaked. With that, I can set up the camera to do exactly what I want, lock it, and carry it all day without accidentally changing a setting. I can also unlock it in a second to adjust anything that needs adjustment. It makes the CL as ergonomic to use as the M-D, for me. 😀

G

 

[David Hughes]

Most cameras allow you to disable the buttons. I never use them anyway, but they were never a problem to begin with. Hands come in different sizes and photographers hold their cameras in different ways, so YMMV.

Alas, not one of mine does and I can't afford to replace them all just for something that may not exist on the replacements.

OTOH it's a good idea; my worst moment was whan an icon like a fish swimming in a tank appeared because I'd touched the wrong part of the camera. Meaning I ought to carry the instruction manual with me all the time; not that fish icon is indexed...

Regards, David

 

[Keith]

Just a point to add here regarding the service availability of Leicas. When I bought my M240 new here in Oz it had an issue with the shutter speed dial that I noticed almost immediately. When I contacted the seller I was told that I needed to return the camera to them and they would forward it for repair and I could expect to be without it for approximately six weeks.

That's a pretty hard pill to swallow when you have just paid close to eight grand (AUD) for an item. And before anyone accuses me of being a repetitive whinger who loves to bash Leica this is the first time I have mentioned this here at RFF. It didn't make me like my M240 any less than I do but it did make me wonder what would happen if I had encountered a similar issue with a high end Nikon or Canon.

 

[Godfrey]

I agree: that's a hard thing to have to deal with.

However, If I noticed an issue like that "almost immediately", I'd take the camera back to the dealer and exchange for another one. Any Leica Store would do that, most other good Leica dealers too. Still a PITA, but defectives happen no matter what the product in question.

My most recent experience with a reasonably high-end Nikon (the D750) in 2015-2017 went like this: I get the camera and a week after I get it, there's a recall from Nikon for a problem they've found that surfaced in the shutter/mirror mechanism. Mine is one of the ones afflicted, I go through their registration process, and send the camera off. It's returned three weeks later. I didn't use it much, since in the meantime the Leica SL had been delivered, but seven months later there was another notice in my inbox that another fault had been found and I had to send the Nikon in for rework again. It came back in two weeks this time, but the sensor was filthy. I called and complained, they sent me the shipper to send it back for a redo and cleaning. Four weeks later I had it back, and it seemed to work well. I sold it two weeks later.

I'm not thinking this is typical Nikon, but quite seriously I've had more issues with Nikon, Pentax, Canon, and Sony equipment than with Leica. And the turnaround times have been just about identical for those occasions when I needed Leica service vs all of those. The only company I can say I've gotten significantly better service with is Olympus ... who did a complete overhaul and service of my E-1 a full four months after the service program for the E-1 camera was supposed to have been closed down, and they did it for a flat rate of $185 plus shipping. That was in about 2013 or 2014, for a 2003 digital SLR camera that had been superseded twice in their pro line, which is pretty amazing.

G

 

[Keith]

I was hoping that would happen Godfrey but this was a large photography outlet carrying multiple brands. That said I would have expected them to contact Leica in Oz and say hey let's just give this guy another camera! No such damned luck unfortunately! lol 😛

I think we put up with quite a lot from Leica because we genuinely love their cameras and rightly so ... they are unique. 🙂

 

[Huss]

I was hoping that would happen Godfrey but this was a large photography outlet carrying multiple brands. That said I would have expected them to contact Leica in Oz and say hey let's just give this guy another camera! No such damned luck unfortunately! lol 😛

I think we put up with quite a lot from Leica because we genuinely love their cameras and rightly so ... they are unique. 🙂

When my M-E failed a couple of months into ownership - I bought it brand new - there was no offer to exchange it for another.

 

[Huss]

FYI I had the shutter recall with my Nikon D750. I got it back within a week.
When the AF failed on my F6, I got that back in 2 days, fixed. Admittedly I was able to drive to their service center in Los Angeles, but that still is an excellent turn around. And that is w/o having the pro membership.