Mic Drop Moment: M10-D with thumb lever

[Guth]

Not speaking specifically of Leicas, but have cameras in general become more problematic / less reliable than those of 30+ years ago?

 

[Godfrey]

Not speaking specifically of Leicas, but have cameras in general become more problematic / less reliable than those of 30+ years ago?

I don't have any reliable statistics to report. However, none of my modern cameras have really needed any service at all unless they had a defect on delivery or I damaged them by accident. Back in the day, nearly every camera needed maintenance now and then.

My overall impression is that modern cameras have far fewer problems than ones made thirty years ago, despite being orders of magnitude more complex. Of course, those thirty plus year old cameras now nearly all need maintenance: I've spent much more restoring and servicing my old film cameras in recent years than I've spent on anything with the new ones other than the cost of buying the new ones.

G

 

[PKR]

Snip
"The fact is that relatively few photographers ever master their medium. Instead they allow the medium to master them and go on an endless squirrel cage chase from new lens to new paper to new developer to new gadget, never staying with one piece of equipment long enough to learn its full capacities, becoming lost in a maze of technical information that is of little or no use since they don't know what to do with it." - Edward Weston

Snip
I am a full time pro and as one we never have just one camera body. You learn early in your career that you need backup for the backup so it is usually several bodies. I will be getting another M 10 (not the P or the new M-D) and that should be it until I finally retire in a few years. The M 10 is everything I need in a camera.

I am glad that the M 10 is 24mps. I am glad that it doesn't have video. I really like the ISO dial. It is a camera that lets me have full control and gets out of the way and lets me create. Many aren't going to like it and that's fine. If the way you see and work needs more from a camera then there are plenty of those options out there. But again it is nice to have a real digital alternative. And if you don't like any of Leica's offerings or have huge issue with service don't buy Leica.


I am out.

"It is a camera that lets me have full control and gets out of the way and lets me create.."

I don't think many understand this concept. In the time I've been on this forum, I've always spoken of cameras as tools ...that gets (you, me and some others) what we see, the way that we see it, recorded .. without getting in the way.

A camera has to be easy to see through and record (accurately ?) images the way we like them recorded, as easily and effortlessly as possible. If the camera I choose breaks more often than i might like, i own more than two of them. It's work stuff for making images. The images are what's important. When i worked as an assistant to a NatGeo photographer long ago, he had 7 Nikon bodies in his kit. He used one most of the time. The repair shop was far away. I remember Bill Allard packing 6 R6 bodies. They failed a lot but, he liked the way Leica lenses rendered color. So, he dealt with the trouble.

We who work with cameras as tools, see them differently, I guess. We ask different things from them and, if they deliver, we're tolerant of problems..within limits.

Buying a new camera is a PITA because, i have to know it inside out. And, that takes time and isn't fun. Mastering a new digital camera is a lot of work. It takes many weeks to know it. Months to have experienced all the quirks. Once you know it well, it's no longer in the way. Lenses are the same.

There is a dependence on our hardware that most others don't experience.

I fully understand your thoughts on the topic and am in agreement with you.

Edit: I read that David Harvey isn't shooting RAW any longer. He's using JPGS out of the camera, with little or no post adjustment. He's got his camera (XT-2 i think) dialed. He says it's like the Kodachrome days, he using the camera's image processor to do the work. He can concentrate on making photos without much, if any, post.

I want to be able to do that too.

 

[Guth]

I don't have any reliable statistics to report. However, none of my modern cameras have really needed any service at all unless they had a defect on delivery or I damaged them by accident. Back in the day, nearly every camera needed maintenance now and then.

My overall impression is that modern cameras have far fewer problems than ones made thirty years ago, despite being orders of magnitude more complex. Of course, those thirty plus year old cameras now nearly all need maintenance: I've spent much more restoring and servicing my old film cameras in recent years than I've spent on anything with the new ones other than the cost of buying the new ones.

G

It's no surprise that those older cameras are needing much more service and attention these days. But you've gotten to the heart of the situation. I thought perhaps the issues Leica faces with poor service and support are as much of a reflection of the complexity of the cameras of today as it is problems with Leica itself as a company. I'll admit that I am surprised to find out that newer cameras are actually more dependable with fewer flaws than cameras of a few decades ago. Thanks for the response.

 

[David Hughes]

As PKR says "Buying a new camera is a PITA because, i have to know it inside out. And, that takes time and isn't fun. Mastering a new digital camera is a lot of work. It takes many weeks to know it. Months to have experienced all the quirks. Once you know it well, it's no longer in the way. Lenses are the same."

And I'll add my 2d worth; up to a vague point in the 90's you knew where you stood with a camera regardless of the make. That was mostly because they more or less all behaved the same and might just have one little quirk but not dozens of them. So getting to know them wasn't too hard on us. I'm talking about serious cameras by the way, not fully auto P&S's.

My guess is that at some point they stopped being designed by photographers for photographers with the electronic people brought in to do something like a jobbing gardener. And then - horror - the computer people started to take over the design and it went the way of some software with everything possible thrown in, whether it was wanted or not.

As for the earlier ones, they were simple mechanical things that needed maintaining because of wear and tear but little else.

Anyway, that's just my 2d worth.

Regards. David

 

[Yokosuka Mike]

I'm thinking

 

[Sumarongi]

And then - horror - the computer people started to take over the design and it went the way of some software with everything possible thrown in, whether it was wanted or not.

As for the earlier ones, they were simple mechanical things that needed maintaining because of wear and tear but little else.

Thank you, David -- I absolutely agree.
I've just started another thread so to say looking at this very topic from the opposite side:
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2844446

 

[Yokosuka Mike]

Mic Drop Moment?

I am a full time pro... blah blah blah, blah blah blah, blah blah blah... what?

*** is such a Mic Drop Moment about this POS camera?

A stupid shutter lever that dosen't do anything.

Back to my X-Pro2 and A7II.

Mike

Ps, can't believe that they sensor "***" here.

Okay maybe I've had a few glasses of wine... maybe I'm having a bit of fun too

 

[sc_rufctr]

It's good to see some passionate discussion in this thread.

About the dummy lever...
I can see the ergonomic benefit and a lot of people will think you're using a film camera.

but I'm trying to imagine the discussion at Leica when this was first proposed. 🙄

 

[willie_901]

Leica asked me to send payment of $500 a month ago to cover the expenses for repairing dead pixel columns. They did not suggest a (free) firmware fix for it.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

With CCD photodiode arrays a single dead photo-diode site can render a whole column unreadable.

I must say I am unable to understand how to repair dead pixel columns without replacing the entire sensor assembly.

Sensor remapping via firmware is commonly reported. But this is not a repair. The defective photodiode(s) is remain(s) defective.

Some report mapping and other report replacement.

On a Forum that may not be named here, six months ago someone wrote:

"... the fix is simple and free. You send a DNG file to Leica, and they send you a custom firmware file, which will remap your sensor and get rid of those lines. Each remapping will make your sensor one row of pixels narrower (the lines for some reason are always vertical), but this is really no big deal."

 

[Huss]

"It is a camera that lets me have full control and gets out of the way and lets me create..".

But is it?
Full control means being able to achieve the results that you want.

With this camera, you don't know if you have missed the exposure that you want, or the focus that you want, unless you pull out your phone, connect to it, then start checking the images.

What you do get is whatever you have set it at. Which actually may not be what you want. But that is when we call it art.
😀

 

[35photo]

But is it?
Full control means being able to achieve the results that you want.

With this camera, you don't know if you have missed the exposure that you want, or the focus that you want, unless you pull out your phone, connect to it, then start checking the images.

What you do get is whatever you have set it at. Which actually may not be what you want. But that is when we call it art.
😀

Learn thy tool, it will set you free..

 

[ptpdprinter]

With this camera, you don't know if you have missed the exposure that you want, or the focus that you want, unless you pull out your phone, connect to it, then start checking the images. What you do get is whatever you have set it at. Which actually may not be what you want. But that is when we call it art.
😀

If you know what you are doing, you don't have to check after every shot. Of course, if you don't know what you are doing, then reviewing your images will tell you when you have screwed up. I don't use the rear screen for anything other than changing menu settings, which is a rare occurrence. And sometimes for live view when working on a tripod.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I just keep getting sucked back into this ha ha.

Does anybody read what I write? I said that I doubt I will get this camera (M 10 D). I was referring to Leica M digital rangefinders like the MM and M 10. They fit the way I see and work. I have no idea of what working with the M 10 D or the M 262 MD is like because I haven't shot with one but I did shoot film exclusively until late 2005. And I have shot both professionally and with my personal work with probably more different formats and and cameras than many have so I know what works for me.

For my personal work it has been for quite a while street work so I usually only have one shot and that is usually measured in fractions of seconds. All I can say is knowledge and experience are the key. Bresson referred to it as a developed instinct and that is one part of that developed skill. Shooting transparency film for a couple of decades really helps with the discipline of nailing exposure.

For me and the way I have worked over the decades it is much easier for me to not have any decisions being made by the camera. It is just the way I work and have worked since I started photographing seriously. It is second nature and working with cameras that I pick up and don't have to even think (like breathing, the technical part is just second nature) and Leica M is that for me. Might not be that for others but that is what I refer to when I say it just gets out of the way and lets me create.

And I worked with DSLRs for over a decade and I NEVER had that experience with them. They were never second nature to me like say a 500 C/M, fully manual Canon F-1, film Leica M or large format.

We are all more comfortable with different tools. My choice comes from experience and what is best for me. That may or may not be the case for someone else. Thats why having choices is in my opinion so important. And for me and the way I see and the way I work now at this point in time the Leica M digital is the tool I prefer to work with because for me it gets out of the way. It is second nature when I use it.

Shoot with the tool you need to shoot with. I don't care what anyone else shoots with because ultimate it is the work that matters. Find tools that make it easy for you to create. I have. But I love how so many think they know what would be best for me and how i work. I do appreciate the concern but my choice was not a choice made from ignorance. Just like I'm sure others have made their choices from trial and error. So go make some photographs and use whatever tool you are comfortable with. Hopefully it is one that gets out of the way and lets create. So lets all gp out and make some photographs.

 

[splitimageview]

So lets all gp out and make some photographs.

Indeed.

Much more fun than discussing levers and repairs.

🙂

 

[airfrogusmc]

Indeed.

Much more fun than discussing levers and repairs.

🙂

YES it is.

 

[David Hughes]

If we don't dicuss it, some other camera maker will go one better and bring out a digital camera with a fake film advance lever and a fake rewind knob and a battery compartment under the fake rewind knob for a battery that looks like a reloadable cassette...

And there are people who think I'm joking; it's worrying.

Regards, David

 

[Godfrey]

...
Does anybody read what I write? ...

I have no idea of what working with the M 10 D or the M 262 MD is like because I haven't shot with one but I did shoot film exclusively until late 2005. ...

For me and the way I have worked over the decades it is much easier for me to not have any decisions being made by the camera. ...

...lets all go out and make some photographs.

Yes. And I agree to the max to be accounted for permitting some individual variation in preferences. 🙂

Working with the Leica M-D typ 262 is essentially the same as working with an M4-2 (adding: the ability to change sensitivity on a frame by frame basis, a built in meter with the option of Aperture AE, auto-winder with up to two fps continuous operation, and a self timer); or an M7 with the autowinder. There are no camera configuration possibilities other than setting the date and time, and the above standard controls. The M-D only creates DNG files, and has only AWB, so all rendering decisions other than ISO, aperture, exposure time, and focus are up to you and your preferred image processing environment.

I feel very much the same way. Most of what I spend my time doing whenever I have a new camera nowadays is figuring out how to lock down all the automation so that it operates like the M-D does: simply, with me using the meter to guide my setting the exposure, focusing, etc. Doing all that is so natural to me nowadays that when I turn on an automation camera and it starts doing stuff like focus and metering evaluation, etc, by itself, it distracts me from seeing my subject.

And yes: enough of posting to this thread. I'm picking up the camera and going out now. 🙂

 

[PKR]

I just keep getting sucked back into this ha ha.
Snip
Shoot with the tool you need to shoot with. I don't care what anyone else shoots with because ultimate it is the work that matters. Find tools that make it easy for you to create. I have. But I love how so many think they know what would be best for me and how i work. I do appreciate the concern but my choice was not a choice made from ignorance. Just like I'm sure others have made their choices from trial and error. So go make some photographs and use whatever tool you are comfortable with. Hopefully it is one that gets out of the way and lets create. So lets all gp out and make some photographs.

"I don't care what anyone else shoots with because ultimate(ly) it is the work that matters."

I think this is the root of the argument. And, I believe it's the great divide among the mass of "photo people" both on this forum and with the public.

Years back, Paolo Pellegrin was using cheap Olympus 6mp digital cameras. I think they had a fixed zoom lens. They constantly crapped out so, he packed 6 of them around, taking several into the field. I remember him being criticized for using such a cheap camera. He said, they work for me and weigh little. They break often under my work conditions (conflict and other) so, i pack several. I wonder if all his critics looked at the pictures he made with these cheap plastic cameras?
https://www.magnumphotos.com/photographer/paolo-pellegrin/

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympussp500uz

 

[jsrockit]

Years back, Paolo Pellegrin was using cheap Olympus 6mp digital cameras. I think they had a fixed zoom lens. They constantly crapped out so, he packed 6 of them around, taking several into the field. I remember him being criticized for using such a cheap camera. He said, they work for me and weigh little. They break often under my work conditions (conflict and other) so, i pack several. I wonder if all his critics looked at the pictures he made with these cheap plastic cameras?
https://www.magnumphotos.com/photographer/paolo-pellegrin/

It'll always be easier to buy more stuff than to learn to make compelling images. However, we have numerous examples of people using less to make great work. We have even had a few great books made with early iPhones (EARLY not now).

It is always a great reminder to think of these people and look at the work.

These days many would make you think that you need an F1 lens and an array of lenses from 8mm to 1000mm, ISO 102,000, FF or larger sensors, and IBIS in order to do anything. If anything, I am going backwards... everything is pretty damn nice these days, so I will most likely never buy an expensive new camera again... I'll just wait a year or two and buy used. That said, I do have a passing interest in what a project was made with... simply for the times when the equipment is less than expected.