Minimum handholdable speed on folder?

[pb908]

just recently got a Mess Ikonta 524/16, and it have been so much fun using it. But I don't know if there any tips in using it handhold, what is the minimum speed can be use without recognizeable shake happen on the picture?

i was thinking to get 6x9 as well. So how about the speed limit of 105mm lens?

as far as I know, on 35mm slr, the best practice is to use 1/FL (i know that some people can do below that value). But I don't have any clue for MF 75mm and 105mm. Please advice. Thanks a lot.

 

[Gumby]

just recently got a Mess Ikonta 524/16, and it have been so much fun using it. But I don't know if there any tips in using it handhold, what is the minimum speed can be use without recognizeable shake happen on the picture?

i was thinking to get 6x9 as well. So how about the speed limit of 105mm lens?

as far as I know, on 35mm slr, the best practice is to use 1/FL (i know that some people can do below that value). But I don't have any clue for MF 75mm and 105mm. Please advice. Thanks a lot.

(D e l e t e d)

 

[Steve M.]

Guess it depends on your nerves and your subject. I would think 1/8 second if conditions are right, 1/15 seems doable from my experience. That 105 lens in MF is about the same as a 50 in 35mm, so it's about the same as a 35mm camera w/ a leaf or cloth shutter.

 

[thegman]

All of the above, but also it depends what you consider acceptable sharpness. If you're after gritty, grainy street shots, then a bit of shake is no big deal, but if you're doing carefully composed architecture or landscape shots, then probably no amount of shake is acceptable.

 

[oftheherd]

I think the reciprocal of the lens length is what to key off of, not the format on which it is used. But that said, since they are small and light, you can often get down to very low speeds and the larger format will help with any small amount of shake. The only way you will really know is by trying. Everyone is different in their abilities as well as old folders maybe having inaccurate speeds.

 

[ottluuk]

I think the reciprocal of the lens length is what to key off of, not the format on which it is used.

I think not.

This is how I've understood this:
With normal (non-macro) subject distances, blur mainly comes from angular movements (inability to keep your aim rather than shifting left-right). How the angular speed of your unwanted movements is translated to the linear speed of the image moving across film is dependent on the angle of view/magnification of the lens.

Let's say you have a superwide with 90 degrees of horizontal coverage and a telephoto with 10 degrees horizontal coverage. Aim them at an object and pan through 45 degrees left. In your superwide frame, the object you focussed on has travelled half the width of the image, still barely visible on the very right. In case of the telephoto lens, much has passed your view and no objects from the original view remain. On a much smaller scale, this is what happens during a shaky exposure. In case of low-magnification (wide-angle) lenses, any point in the image can deviate less from its original location than in the case of a high-magnification lens during a given exposure time.

To me, this means that the handholding "rule" applies to equivalent angles of view, not actual focal lengths. This means that most people should be able to hand-hold a normal lens around 1/50th second in any format given that operating the camera is relatively effortless.

I have reasonably steady hands (or low expectations of image quality 😀 ) so I can usually get away with 2/(focal length equivalent). My GRD-III has a 6mm, 28mm-equivalent lens, and I generally succeed in hand-holding it down to 1/15 sec. Works for me.

 

[Gumby]

I think not.

So I went to the book shelf and learned a few things:

1. I didn't remember the rule-of-thumb correctly (so I deleted my earlier erroneous post)
2. What few references discussed this estimate used the term "with a normal lens".
3. Many on-line references don't cite a format that they believe it applies to, but most imply 35mm.
4. Most of the references emphasize using faster speeds rather than trying to shoot at a speed that might be below their handholding capability.
5. All of the reference I saw acknowledge that this is very unique to each individual, and to the photographic situation at hand.

 

[lxmike]

Not to bright when it comes to the laws that govern such matters but over the last 35 years I've managed to hand hold at arround 1/15th and still get good results

 

[Roger Hicks]

To me, this means that the handholding "rule" applies to equivalent angles of view, not actual focal lengths. This means that most people should be able to hand-hold a normal lens around 1/50th second in any format given that operating the camera is relatively effortless.

Absolutely. A 127mm (5 inch) lens on a 4x5 inch camera (the standard for press photography) equates roughly to 35mm on 35mm -- and there are plenty of stories of shooting at 1/25, 1/10 and even 1/5, quite apart from the old "1/60 at f/8 and be there".

The rule of thumb is also steadily weaker as you get further from 'standard'. With wide-angles you can often hand-hold for longer (21mm at 1/15, 1/8 or even 1/4) while with long lenses you'd do better to shoot at 1/1000 with a 500mm lens rather than 1/500.

And, as others have noted, 'it depends'. Are you tired? Hungry? Loaded with caffeine? Have you been running or climbing stairs? That's quite apart from the ease of holding the camera, and the smoothness of the release. Most people get far better resolution out of a 38/4.5 Biogon on an Alpa than from the same lens on a Hasseblad SWC. And (most importantly) how big will the picture be run and how low is your tolerance for loss of sharpness?

So, to reply to the specific question, for me, for 105mm on 6x9, 1/60 is likely to be better than 1/30 but 1/30 is likely to be tolerable. At 1/125 I'm unlikely to see much improvement over 1/60 but at 1/15 it's a bit iffy for real sharpness.

Cheers,

R.

 

[hanskerensky]

In the photomagazines of the 1950s, when your folder was lying new in the photoshops, the normal advice was to go 1/50 or faster handheld. Quite a problem at that time with the slower films but not nowadays with the fast emulsions. My advise go 1/100 or faster for best results. Except the human factor (shaky hands) you also have to take into account that operating the shutter release button puts force on 1 side of the camera and so (depending on smoothnes) induces another movement of the camera. You can do some tests by making photos of a stationary black card, some meters (i.e. 5 mtr) away with a small hole in the middle and a lamp beyond.
Study the developed film with a strong magnyfier or project the images and watch your own results at different shutterspeeds. Have fun !

 

[pagpow]

Lot of good info here -- but a couple of points to be made:

1) Generally, assuming that you are not shaking from the effort of holding, additional mass helps shoot at slower speeds -- less movement from pressing the shutter button

Thus the lightness of the folders is not necessarily a help w. steadiness

2) Enlargement of the image also helps -- so format does count, because you will likely enlarge it less, and movement will also be enlarged less

3) How you can hold the camera to steady it also helps -- so the somewhat less secure holds possible with a folder (compared, say to a 35mm) count against us

4) Many 6x9 folders have the shutter release on the left hand side -- in my shooting any way, it seems this is likely to induce more shake -- I am right handed and not as smooth with left

Oops -- I see Roger has already made points 3 and 4

5) I'm also wondering whether the leaf shutter doesn't work in our favor (less shake) than the focal plane

YMMV

 

[pb908]

Thanks for all the reply.
I still confuse,yet. And another questions come up.
Talking about the angle of view, which is the ekuivalent FL (in 35mm term) which having angle of view of 75mm on 6x6, and 105mm on 6x9. If all of the lenses angle of view equal to 50mm lens (35mm format), i think the normal rules (1/FL) applies, but FL=50mm (as we equalize all MF FL into 35mm FL).
As a bonus, we have no mirror on folder, nor a focal plane shutter, so the small kick of our leaf shutter possibly allows us to take up to 1/15s (for normal people) without shaking the picture.
With 35mm leaf shutter i've managed to take picture at 1/8s with no shake, let's see if i get the same result on mf.

how about weight distribution of the camera, is that going to be a factor reducing/magnifying shake as well?
my 6x6 ikonta is light enough so I don't think it's going to be and issue, and the fact that it deploys with folder flipped down made a good base for the camera to be hold in center (if required).
How about 6x9, is that going to be balance enought as the lens protude longer (and maybe heavier as well)?

 

[NickTrop]

1/30th of a second.

 

[Gumby]

1/30th of a second.

... or in my case, no slower than 1/50 with a 645 folder (Kodak Duo)

 

[oftheherd]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ottluuk
To me, this means that the handholding "rule" applies to equivalent angles of view, not actual focal lengths. This means that most people should be able to hand-hold a normal lens around 1/50th second in any format given that operating the camera is relatively effortless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Hicks

Absolutely. A 127mm (5 inch) lens on a 4x5 inch camera (the standard for press photography) equates roughly to 35mm on 35mm -- and there are plenty of stories of shooting at 1/25, 1/10 and even 1/5, quite apart from the old "1/60 at f/8 and be there".

So, to reply to the specific question, for me, for 105mm on 6x9, 1/60 is likely to be better than 1/30 but 1/30 is likely to be tolerable. At 1/125 I'm unlikely to see much improvement over 1/60 but at 1/15 it's a bit iffy for real sharpness.

____________________________________________________________

I bow to superior intelligence and experience. 😱

I guess if I had thought it through, I would have realized that were true.

The rest of what I said I think is correct, as has been mentioned by subsequent posters. I have gotten usable photos from very slow shutter speeds before, sometimes as low as 1/4 second even with SLR (I used to be in better shape and my photo muscles were well trained and used).

But as I age and photograph less, the need for higher speeds seems evident. 😡

 

[graywolf]

Ah, so, many opinions. I will add mine from experience.

These all refer to RF type cameras, you may need to go one stop faster with an SLR. And some days when feeling particularly steady you can go a stop slower. If tired or shaky, a couple of stops faster are indicated. These are from my own experience, with normal lenses, for 8x10 or smaller prints:

4x5 1/10 second.
6x6 1/25 second.
35mm 1/50 second.

I would expect that inbetween formats would have inbetween speeds.

With 6x9 (120/620) folders 1/25 was advised as the minimum hand held speed, but I think that was for snapshot sized enlargements.

 

[dmr]

Not to bright when it comes to the laws that govern such matters but over the last 35 years I've managed to hand hold at arround 1/15th and still get good results

I can always do 1/60, usually do 1/30, often do 1/15, and rarely when I've tried it, 1/8. I consider my hand, even at my age, to be very steady.

 

[citizen99]

...
it would simply be a matter of trial and error to see which 6x9 camera felt the most comfortable in your hands..some people dont like a 6x9 bessa for example, particularly pointing out they dont like the trigger ,but personally i think its great, never had a problem with it and it almost feels like pulling a trigger on a rifle (it has a similar shape), many other feel fine to me as well, it matters little that the door opens to one side, they dont weigh very much

Hear hear, I also find that the trigger on those Bessas suits me very well 🙂.
And, for a 6x6, I also like the Kershaw 450, where the trigger is almost 'camouflaged' as part of the door structure, and can be operated with a gentle thumb to opposed finger squeeze.

 

[Ezzie]

Chippy has a point there. Ergonomics play a big part in how steady you can hold the camera. The release button on my Ikonta 523 is not for me, I keep halfway depressing it until my finger bottoms out on the film reminder dial, activating the double exposure lock, but not the release. Very annoying. But with a mini soft release all is well, and 1/30s works OK if I'm not too arthritic that day.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Chippy appears to be ignoring the fact that the bigger the format, the less it is enlarged for a given print size, so the less the blur induced by angular movement during the exposure is enlarged, so the longer the shutter speed you can get away with.

This is quite apart from the fact that it's a matter of common experience among those who have tried it. Do you need 1/125 with a 127mm lens on 4x5? No.

And, as has repeatedly been stated, it's only a rule of thumb; it's not especially reliable; and it points towards shorter-than-necessary speeds with wide-angles and longer-than-desirable speeds with longer lenses.

Cheers,

R.