Discaciate
Newbie
Hello my FSU friends.
I bought a MIR (pretty much a Zorki 4) to myself and tried a 12exp color film to test it. I loaded it according to manuals and tutorials I have found on the internet (specially this one: http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/marine/569/rusrngfdrs/zorki4.html ). I was thirled to discover that it was not only working, but also with a super sharp and contrasty Jupiter 8.
So I decided it was time to go B&W and have fun. That's when my problems started. I loaded the 36exp B&W film just like I did with the 12 exp one and started shooting. Everything was smooth till I got around the 20th exposure. At that time I felt that cooking the shutter was a bit less fluid, but continued anyway. Than it got worse, even harder. I tried to rewind the film, but had no luck. The knob just would not turn.
So I opened the camera and what a mess it was inside. The film roll was all around the sprocket mechanism, giving a full spin on the mechanism and poping up from the other side. I thought it was just a case of bad loading, with the film being to loose on loading.
I then removed the film (lost it) and tried again with another film. But the problem happened again just like before.
:bang:
Any ideas of what might be happening? Maybe I missed something while loading the film? I don't want to blindly try a third one, since they are expensive here im Brazil.
I bought a MIR (pretty much a Zorki 4) to myself and tried a 12exp color film to test it. I loaded it according to manuals and tutorials I have found on the internet (specially this one: http://www.fortunecity.com/marina/marine/569/rusrngfdrs/zorki4.html ). I was thirled to discover that it was not only working, but also with a super sharp and contrasty Jupiter 8.
So I decided it was time to go B&W and have fun. That's when my problems started. I loaded the 36exp B&W film just like I did with the 12 exp one and started shooting. Everything was smooth till I got around the 20th exposure. At that time I felt that cooking the shutter was a bit less fluid, but continued anyway. Than it got worse, even harder. I tried to rewind the film, but had no luck. The knob just would not turn.
So I opened the camera and what a mess it was inside. The film roll was all around the sprocket mechanism, giving a full spin on the mechanism and poping up from the other side. I thought it was just a case of bad loading, with the film being to loose on loading.
I then removed the film (lost it) and tried again with another film. But the problem happened again just like before.
:bang:
Any ideas of what might be happening? Maybe I missed something while loading the film? I don't want to blindly try a third one, since they are expensive here im Brazil.
wolves3012
Veteran
From the sound of things, you may have a problem with the wind clutch not slipping as it should. Take the back off the camera and try to hold the film spool still while you wind on. It should not be too difficult to hold it still but you should feel it trying to turn. If it's either too tight or too loose then it is not working properly. If it's too tight it will pull the film too hard once enough film has wound (20 frames sounds about right). If it's too loose then the film will not be pulled through and will tangle up anywhere it can. Too loose and it would not be expected to reach 20 frames.
By the way, welcome to RFF
By the way, welcome to RFF
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Discaciate
Newbie
Thx for your reply.
Since english is not my main language and I'm kinda new to film photography, I dunno which one is the "film spool" .
Could you be kind enought and tell me what is the number by looking at the picture in the page 9:
http://66.49.230.119/russian_pdf/zorki_4k.pdf
thx
Since english is not my main language and I'm kinda new to film photography, I dunno which one is the "film spool" .
Could you be kind enought and tell me what is the number by looking at the picture in the page 9:
http://66.49.230.119/russian_pdf/zorki_4k.pdf
thx
zorroflores
Zorroflores
Hi,
The film spool is part number 21, the take up spool where the film rolls on.
Best regards
The film spool is part number 21, the take up spool where the film rolls on.
Best regards
wolves3012
Veteran
Have to say it's rather good though, based on your previous post!Discaciate said:
Discaciate
Newbie
Thx both of you guys for the responses.
Wolves, your explanation made perfect sense to me. Maybe that's the problem...
I did just as you told me, and everything seems to be working fine. But since I have no means to compare it with an fully working, it's kinda hard to tell...
Upon close inspection in the outside part of the camera, it seems that the Winder Knob has a very little tilt to the right.
You can try to see it here (but it's really small):
Any ideas of how to fix it? Maybe disaseble it? I'm a quick learner with no fear of trying.
I'm thinking about buying some cheap and fake Fuji 36exp films and testing to the max...
The bad part is that I was having such a wonderful time shooting with it... I'm kinda spoiled by dSLR and shooting without the light meter and with no way of seen the result till the processing is kinda new to me. It was photographic heaven....
Oh well. As the Rolling Stones said in one of their famous songs: "You can't always get what you want..."
Wolves, your explanation made perfect sense to me. Maybe that's the problem...
I did just as you told me, and everything seems to be working fine. But since I have no means to compare it with an fully working, it's kinda hard to tell...
Upon close inspection in the outside part of the camera, it seems that the Winder Knob has a very little tilt to the right.
You can try to see it here (but it's really small):
Any ideas of how to fix it? Maybe disaseble it? I'm a quick learner with no fear of trying.
I'm thinking about buying some cheap and fake Fuji 36exp films and testing to the max...
The bad part is that I was having such a wonderful time shooting with it... I'm kinda spoiled by dSLR and shooting without the light meter and with no way of seen the result till the processing is kinda new to me. It was photographic heaven....
Oh well. As the Rolling Stones said in one of their famous songs: "You can't always get what you want..."
wolves3012
Veteran
Well, the winder should not have that tilt, I can see it in the photo quite easily. If the clutch seems ok then you could try a scrap roll of film in the camera. Just wind it maybe 15 frames then open the back and have a look, wind a couple more and have another look etc. Maybe you can find the problem then. Is the wind knob wobbling when you wind? Does the top of the camera, where the wind knob is, look dented or damaged in any way? If the top is dented, causing the wind to be tilted, then it may be possible to bend it back very carefully and gently, although you do risk breaking something!
Discaciate
Newbie
Wolves.
Thx again. I think you have pointed me in the right direction.
I'm stubborn man, so I had to try again.
Well... Same thing again. :bang:
But this time I took photos and I believe that you found the problem. (The B&W is to add dramaticity to the whole problem solving thing
).
I - The Problem:
II - It's tilted to the right, I bet it should be straight, right?
III - As you said, the winding part doesn't look too good:
So, any ideas on how to fix it? I tried using my hands, but it's really fixed in that position.
I don't mind the risk of breaking it, sincce for me it is already broken...
So, should I bring the hammer?
Thx again. I think you have pointed me in the right direction.
I'm stubborn man, so I had to try again.
Well... Same thing again. :bang:
But this time I took photos and I believe that you found the problem. (The B&W is to add dramaticity to the whole problem solving thing
).I - The Problem:
II - It's tilted to the right, I bet it should be straight, right?
III - As you said, the winding part doesn't look too good:
So, any ideas on how to fix it? I tried using my hands, but it's really fixed in that position.
I don't mind the risk of breaking it, sincce for me it is already broken...
So, should I bring the hammer?
fidget
Lemon magnet
That's a mess!
Could it be that the take up spool has no drive? That is, that the spool does not have a good enough friction fit on the driving shaft or the clutch is not gripping (the reverse of what we usually see). The wrong spool could do this perhaps? Can you turn the take up spool easily? (when in position)
Could it be that the take up spool has no drive? That is, that the spool does not have a good enough friction fit on the driving shaft or the clutch is not gripping (the reverse of what we usually see). The wrong spool could do this perhaps? Can you turn the take up spool easily? (when in position)
wolves3012
Veteran
Fidget,
That was my initial thoughts too, no tension on the film. However, you can see clearly that the wind knob and spool are not vertical in the body. Maybe to the extent that the spool is fouling or dragging on the body or allowing the film to do so? Notice the state of the wind-know too, that has taken a bashing; perhaps the camera was dropped and landed on it, sideways-on?
Discaciate,
You're quite right it should be straight. I think you will break the shaft if you try and bend that back. If you're ok with mechanics, I would suggest taking the spool out, and then its shaft (undo the bottom of it). Next you will have to take out the inner shaft, around which is wrapped a spring. Removing the wind knob will allow that inner shaft to come out. Don't just pull, turn it in the winder direction as well as pulling gently. Be careful not to damage that spring! After that I would find a suitable piece of steel bar and insert that into the bearing to check if that is out of line. If so, use the bar to force it back, gently. There is quite some risk of damage in doing this but the camera is not really usable anyway so you don't have much to lose!
That was my initial thoughts too, no tension on the film. However, you can see clearly that the wind knob and spool are not vertical in the body. Maybe to the extent that the spool is fouling or dragging on the body or allowing the film to do so? Notice the state of the wind-know too, that has taken a bashing; perhaps the camera was dropped and landed on it, sideways-on?
Discaciate,
You're quite right it should be straight. I think you will break the shaft if you try and bend that back. If you're ok with mechanics, I would suggest taking the spool out, and then its shaft (undo the bottom of it). Next you will have to take out the inner shaft, around which is wrapped a spring. Removing the wind knob will allow that inner shaft to come out. Don't just pull, turn it in the winder direction as well as pulling gently. Be careful not to damage that spring! After that I would find a suitable piece of steel bar and insert that into the bearing to check if that is out of line. If so, use the bar to force it back, gently. There is quite some risk of damage in doing this but the camera is not really usable anyway so you don't have much to lose!
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fidget
Lemon magnet
The spool does look to be too far to the right, perhaps because it's loose, although I can't say that the knob appears to be as bad. Just comparing the pics to my '69 Z4, (which may correctly have differences), the spool is not the same. The spool that is fitted here is one of the metal versions, like the one in my Zorki 1. Mine has not got the right locating peg inside and sits more loosely on the clutch.
I think we need Discaciate to check the spool and maybe photograph the insides with the spool off.
I think we need Discaciate to check the spool and maybe photograph the insides with the spool off.
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wolves3012
Veteran
The spool in my '62 is a metal one but it doesn't have the ridges around the bottom. Earlier cameras do seem to have those. Main thing is, is it gripping the shaft via the internal pegs? Still looks skewed to me though. Yes, more pics would help - like one of the spool and one of the shaft without the spool on it.fidget said: