"Modern" rangefinder advice

[Roger Hicks]

And to clarify further, the Bessa-L and R are screw-mount; the R2 was the first M-mount.

Remember that a 24mm frame means an effective base length that is very short indeed: the R4A/M is marginal with fast 50s and out of its depth with a fast 90 (as is any Bessa).

Leica and ZI have auto frame selection; Bessas are manual.

Another ZI review:

http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/zeiss.html

Personally I'd probably go for ZI over M4-P (and I have an M4-P and I wrote the review of the ZI). Better finder; metered; newer. But it's hard to tell. I've been using Leicas since 1969, decades before the ZI came out, and I already had Leicas. My favourite is admittedly my MP...

ANY of them (Voigtländer, Zeiss Ikon, Leica) is a joy after elderly fixed-lens RFs.

Cheers,

R.

 

[ferider]

Hard to find a used clean ZI for under US 800.

BTW, nobody has mentioned the Bessa T. Not a bad camera at all, depending on the lenses you want to get. Check on Stephen's website ....

 

[jpa66]

Yes, I know the Bessas seem to fit the bill. I appreciate the replies about the other cameras, as that's exactly what I wanted. An M4-P seems good, but I'm just leary about using a meter all the time, as it can take a lot of time ( for me, at least ) to figure out the proper exposure. I do have a Gosson Luna Pro six, and I have used it with my non-metered TLR. The Leica is a thought, though, as I would like to keep the camera for a while.

As far as Ikons go, what would be the advantages of it over the M4-P and the Bessas? Other than the meter.

Roger: What would make you want to go for the Zeiss Ikon over the others?

I'll check out all the information that everyone's given me this weekend.

Thanks,
JP

 

[thomasw_]

Hard to find a used clean ZI for under US 800.....

Exactly. And they do have a tendency to have alignment problems. AFAIK, there is no simple DIY fix either?

While a used Leica might cost the same as a new Bessa, a used Bessa will cost even less..

True but the Bessa durability problems very often arise in used purchases; this is not as common when buying older Ms due to the build quality.

And the back actually opens up to load film!

Is this a big deal when shooting a film rangefinder? I fail to comprehend the spool + film leader connection + slip in cassette loading as anything other than very secure and positive. Yea, it takes a few seconds longer but it seems insignificant when, in terms of the typical film RF shooter's agenda, which is the photographic equivalent to cooking's 'slow food' movement. I guess if you shoot weddings with a M2 or 3, you might find you need some extra spools for faster changes....but for a street shooter or M portraiture I don't think so.

I have and love a Leica M3, but there's nothing it really does better than a Bessa if the same glass is up front.....

I think this claim is false. The M3 does focus more easily; the EBL of the M3 is longer than any Bessa, especially the R4*. If you put a Lux 50 on a R4, it just won't focus it as easily.

....the electronically-timed shutter of an "A" model might fit your desire for less maintenance...

Well that depends. Electronics in a camera can be a maintenance hassle.

 

[Roger Hicks]

Roger: What would make you want to go for the Zeiss Ikon over the others?

As I said: better finder, newer, metered. Though I can't say it was my favourite meter. Maybe this morning I'd go for the M4-P instead (or more likely an M2). It's that finely balanced. As against the Bessas, the ZI has more accurate focusing, and auto frame selection; but then, I like the base trigger on a Bessa.

They're all good cameras.

Cheers,

R.

 

[johannielscom]

From the Head Bartender web site: "The Bessa R's film advance and shutter are smooth, yet the M's film advance and shutter are almost a religious experience."

Ergo: get them juices flowing with the Bessa, and eventually get an M4-P

 

[AgentX]

If pressing a shutter release or winding film is a religious experience for you, based on the tactile implications alone, religion is even cheaper than even the minimum credit I've ever given it.

As to the opening of the Leica for reloading, well, it's not a problem for most of those of us not making a living out of rapid shooting with our cameras, and is generally no more than a slight annoyance. (And very few working photographers make a living with this type of camera anyhow...)

But at 5,900+m altitude in well-below-zero conditions, where I've had my M3 (and gloves/overmittens), I do like to have a minimum of loose parts, and don't like having to find a place to stow the baseplate, or hold cold metal in my mouth. Whether the loading is a *big* deal is a relative thing, but suffice it to say that there is undeniably less trouble loading a conventional 35mm. And nothing to fall off and lose in adverse conditions.

I use a meterless mechanical Leica because I like it and I have relatively few issues with its quirks for my totally personal shooting. Not because I have any delusions about its overall superiority; nor do I fetishize it. I am guessing the Leica is indeed a better mechanical specimen than a Bessa, but that's hardly the point--the point is what's up to the task at hand in the here and now, and both cameras do that admirably.

As to electronics being a problem in a camera, yeah, they can be. But so can mechanical parts, especially old ones.

It's like watches. I like my (simple and solid) auto-winder. But I know for a fact that a $20 Timex keeps better time, and needs a new battery less often than my mechanical should have service. Just because I personally like something has nothing to do with its superiority.

And to the OP's needs, there is no Leica which serves them. He can adjust his desires if he wants a Leica more than he wants his needs met, or he could get the camera that meets them best--the Bessa R4 in mechanical or electronic as he prefers.

 

[-doomed-]

I'd go for the bessa the value for the money is fantastic and the r4 would fit your wide shooting needs. I've got an r2a that really is a great camera. Interchangeable lenses and a built in meter(which I've learned to be able to go without from my zorki and m3) easy to handle and mine has withstood being rattled about in my bag and the rf is still in alignment. I'd imagine the r4 working just as well. It'll also allow you more $ to spend on glass to shoot with

 

[wgerrard]

I've used an R4M for a couple of years and recently picked up an M3. A 50mm lens wide open is easier to focus on the M3 under less than ideal light. The M3's finder and patch are not quite as bright as the Bessa's. The Bessa finder's magnification is, I believe, 0.58, compared to the M3's 0.91. Occasionally, I find the small size of the Bessa's finder image to be annoying. In low light, I sometimes find it can be difficult to accurately delineate the two images within the patch, especially if no strong vertical lines are available. Caveat: I do wear glasses, but my corrected vision is excellent.

The M3 is heavier and taller, while the Bessa feels more comfortable in my hands. We don't yet have a 50-year track record on Bessa's, but I see no reason why a properly cared for Bessa can't last a very long time. Dropped from 6 feet onto a sidewalk, I'd give the edge to the M3, but I'd expect both to break.

Factor in the price of a CLA when you consider buying a used camera.

 

[Matus]

along the lines ... should one expect that a used Bessa R3A (R4A are more recent, right) needs a CLA?

 

[wgerrard]

along the lines ... should one expect that a used Bessa R3A (R4A are more recent, right) needs a CLA?

Assuming reasonable care, I'd think the Bessa's are very considerably less in need of CLA than a 50-year-old Leica. The R2 was introduced in 2002, and the R3 and R4 after that. If the care wasn't reasonable, then you're talking repair.

Re: electronics -- Just as reparable as anything mechanical if the right parts are available. The older something gets, the bigger that "if" gets. You might find someone willing to hand fabricate a mechanical part but you won't find anyone who can hand fabricate an integral circuit from the 1960's.

 

[peter_n]

I think the magnification of the R4 is 0.52x.

 

[Roger Hicks]

It just occurred to mr that there is an article on my site about this:

http://www.rogerandfrances.com/subscription/ps rf.html

Cheers,

R.

 

[jpa66]

Thanks for all the replies, everyone.

I've decided that I'm going to go for a Bessa. The Zeiss Ikon sounds very nice, but it's a bit more than I want to spend at this time. I don't to go for the M4-P because it has no meter, and I'm not too keen on how you load film into it ( why can't they just have a swing door, like nearly everybody else? 🙂 ).

So, my decision now lies between which Bessa to get.

JP

 

[AgentX]

You want wide angle framelines, so you want an R4. The mechanical/electronic is the only real question.

Leicas load from the bottom because the designer found it was the strongest way to build the camera at that time. And in comparison to other cameras of the time, it was probably still a pretty fast and sure method of loading.

 

[jpa66]

I think I'm going to go with the R4M. I like the fact that the shutter isn't battery dependent and the wide framelines are what I want.

Thanks again for all the comments.

JP

 

[binky]

the ZI might be closer to the $800 limit if you get a kit that comes with a Zeiss lens and other Z accessories. You might want to look into that route if you're also thinking of getting a ZM 35 or 28, and hood.

If you already have some M mount lenses and don't want to spend more than $800, then the R4M would be a good choice.

BTW, I don't want to have you agonize some more, but before you commit to a manual camera, the AE version (R4A) is quite handy sometimes and requires one less fuss when conditions change quickly--just bring another set of batteries (whereas you could bring a light meter with the R4M unless your skills are quite honed).

Good luck 🙂
JC

 

[peter_n]

I think I'm going to go with the R4M. I like the fact that the shutter isn't battery dependent and the wide framelines are what I want.

Thanks again for all the comments.

JP

Good decision. You will love it! 🙂