Monochrom (e) .... the state not the camera.

[henri klein]

Am I correct in saying that only Kodak has produced a monochrome sensor?

by the name Tri-X I guess

 

[johannielscom]

The Leica MM, as expensive and out of reach as it is, makes a lot of sense to me and many others I'm sure. You only have to look at the number of images posted in the Monochrom thread to realise these photographers who have ponied up for the MM are having a ball shooting only black and white with the only dedicated black and white digital camera on the market.

With the latest Sigma firmware update my DP2M added monochrome as an option to the raw picture menu and that's where it's been set since the update. With the LCD turned off and an accessory finder fitted I now have my 'poor man's Monochrom!'

After the release of the MM it was suggested that other manufacturers may follow suit with dedicated black and white offerings ... but this appears to be not happening! Whether this is based on the limited success of the MM who knows ... how do you base a judgement on market acceptance for anything Leica makes because as we all know they persue the money trail in their own unique way!

Is there room for other dedicated monochrome cameras in the market ... or was it all just a whim?

I'd say yes, since the Monochrom is out of reach financially for many people.

This probably will not come as a surprise (as I'm quite the advocate for it), but I really love my Ricoh GXR with M-mount and use it as a small Monochrom camera: set the file type to RAW but also the display mode to B&W. Result is a small camera that can be operated fully manual, displays the image (seen through the lens) as a B&W image, while it records a color RAW. Which later on can easily be set to B&W on the computer, kept in color, or 'cloned' to have both a color and B&W version.

Lately I've realised the GXR M-mount to be a 'piccolo M240', with the EVF and the absence of an AA filter, like the newer Leica's. Can't say I'm really missing that RF finder either...😱

 

[back alley]

i just desaturate and post process my jpegs...

 

[airfrogusmc]

To be honest, probably 90% of B&W images I see online are really muddy and flat looking, there isn't a clear tonal separation between the subject and the surroundings to draw me in or really create interest. I seldom see exposures like those of Frank or Koudelka for instance.

Sadly I don't enjoy looking at B&W images anymore, so to me the idea of a monochrome only camera is something incredibly outlandish. I probably wouldn't buy a MM if one was offered to me for $500. 😕

There are many all digital photographers that never learned to print B&W and really don't know what a good B&W print should look like. I get exactly the results I need and I tried a lot of different cameras before I settled on the MM for my personal work. It maybe outlandish to you but perfect fit for me and many others.

MM 35 lux FLE wide open.

 

[GaryLH]

i just desaturate and post process my jpegs...

A raw file from a Bayer or xtran sensor camera still needs to go thru raw conversion first and the Bayer or xtran filter array algo work is going to affect the overall iq prior to the desaturation step..

In a monochrom sensor raw file, this will not happen. Same goes for a foveon sensor. The monochrom sensor is probably going to have more dynamic range and high iso then the foveon sensor will though.

Gary

 

[airfrogusmc]

Good news ist, there is no such thing as "what a good B&W print should look like". Thank god no one makes rules for that.

There are standards and bars that have been set by those that have come before. Sure you can do whatever but like it or not the reality is there are some standards especially if you want your work taken seriously.

 

[Keith]

Due to lack of decisiveness on my part removing the option of colour frees me up a lot when I'm taking photos. If I have a colour raw file in front of me on the computer I'm faced with the decision of deciding between two potential images and often I'm sure I make the wrong choice. When I open a file and it's monochrome the decision has been made and I can go about the post processing without distraction.

I guess this is what has made shooting black and white film so comfortable for me to this point. I suspect a lot of people who have moved from black and white film to the MM have done so for many reasons but if I had the money for the Leica this aspect would play a big part in it.

 

[Keith]

While some would say I'm deranged, I get to shoot in B&W with a real M camera for much less than $7950 USD. My real M camera says M4-P on the front and Leitz on the top plate.

Just sayin'... 😉

I wonder when people are going to stop seeing black and white film as an alternative to monochrome digital?

Just saying! 😛

And as for a real 'M camera' ... there hasn't been one since the M3! 😀

 

[icebear]

...

And as for a real 'M camera' ... there hasn't been one since the M3! 😀

I my book the "new" MP isn't too shabby either😉.

 

[airfrogusmc]

I wonder when people are going to stop seeing black and white film as an alternative to monochrome digital?

Just saying! 😛

And as for a real 'M camera' ... there hasn't been one since the M3! 😀

Yes agree because they are different and both have a place.

 

[jtm6]

I probably wouldn't buy a MM if one was offered to me for $500. 😕

You have my word that if you ever have a chance to legally acquire a MM for $500, you can make a nice profit by selling it to me. 😀

 

[ChrisN]

Due to lack of decisiveness on my part removing the option of colour frees me up a lot when I'm taking photos. If I have a colour raw file in front of me on the computer I'm faced with the decision of deciding between two potential images and often I'm sure I make the wrong choice. When I open a file and it's monochrome the decision has been made and I can go about the post processing without distraction.

I guess this is what has made shooting black and white film so comfortable for me to this point. I suspect a lot of people who have moved from black and white film to the MM have done so for many reasons but if I had the money for the Leica this aspect would play a big part in it.

I usually just shoot RAW and take what comes. Some look good in Mono and some don't.

But if I feel like dedicating an outing to digital B&W, I'll shoot RAW + JPG, with the jpg files showing the in-camera B&W conversion (with my choice of in-camera filters, treatments, contrast, toning etc).

When I download I put the RAW files into a separate folder - those are my (digital) negatives, available if I want to make a high-quality print or image file. I put the B&W jpegs into their own folder, and I preview those in Lightroom. Sometimes those are just right, and if there's a really good one, I'll fetch the RAW file to do the best possible conversion and development, aiming for a "fine" image.

But, some image just work better in colour. It's nice to have a fallback position. 😛

 

[GaryLH]

I think one of the neat things that Sigma did w/ the Merrill cameras when they implemented their new version of monochrom --> they added a monochrom flag to the raw file data.

When u shoot in monochrom mode, u don't even have to be in raw+Jpg. Just raw will do.. The live view LCD will show the mono image. When u open the raw in SPP (sigma raw converter) it will automatically bring up the mono dialog. The raw file still has all the color info, if u ever decide to have a color version.

Thus the whole work flow is very similar to shooting w/ a true monochrom sensor if that is what u wish.

Gary

 

[Keith]

I think one of the neat things that Sigma did w/ the Merrill cameras when they implemented their new version of monochrom --> they added a monochrom flag to the raw file data.

When u shoot in monochrom mode, u don't even have to be in raw+Jpg. Just raw will do.. The live view LCD will show the mono image. When u open the raw in SPP (sigma raw converter) it will automatically bring up the mono dialog. The raw file still has all the color info, if u ever decide to have a color version.

Thus the whole work flow is very similar to shooting w/ a true monochrom sensor if that is what u wish.

Gary

To me it's the nearest thing to having a dedicated monochrome camera but until the recent firmware update of course my DPM didn't work this way.

I still find it damned distasteful that you can by a Leica M-E here in Oz for under six grand but they are asking over ten for the MM. It's a great camera but it's a con IMO and I don't say that to deride the people who have paid the asking price!

 

[airfrogusmc]

Yes Keith I do agree that the price is high which really sucks. The way I justified in my own mind was the price of a top of the line Canon or Nikon is about the same price. I am old enough to remember when Leica M was a lot more than both the Nikon F and the Canon F-1. Having said the I haven't had one ounce of buyers remorse. I even use it for some commercial assignments which was never my original intent.

 

[shadowfox]

Sure there is a space for anohter B&W only digital camera. Who here only has one camera anyways.

Sigma is the best company to do this, since they already have niche market for their foveon sensors.

They can offer 3 cameras:
1. DPMerrill - MR for red filtered B&W
2. DPMerrill - MG
3. DPMerrill - MB

To be complete, you have to buy all three of course 🙂

 

[GaryLH]

Ok I'll bite, shadowfox 😀

Lets look at this three different ways, existing foveon sensor, your suggestion and pure monochrom sensor.

- foveon
-- can already do this via post processing via spp monochrom mode color wheel
-- b&w good to 3200 maybe as much as 6400 playing around w/ blue color channel
-- no diff in resolution iq since no Bayer, no AA and all three colors are under the same pixel vs monochrom sensor

- your suggestion
-- dedicated sensor to a RGB color, no need to use real filter as would monochrom, thus no loss of light transmission
-- but no yellow filter emulation
-- possible better dynamic range and higher iso since light does not have to go thru all three RGB layers at each pixel
-- simpler digital path
-- 15mb files instead of 45mb, thus better performance

- monochrom sensor
-- don't need to have multiple cameras, just use correct filter or no filter just like film but at cost of light transmission due to filter factor
-- possible better dynamic range and higher iso since light does not have to go thru all three RGB layers at each pixel
-- simpler digital path
-- 15mb files instead of 45mb, thus better performance


Gary