More on the Pentax film camera project

[armadsen]

My Pentax 17 arrived yesterday. I’m going to go out with my son tomorrow and shoot some photos with it. First impressions: it’s very nice looking, the controls feel good and tactile, it’s light, solid, although the materials feel a little cheap, but I’m comparing it to my usual 35mm cameras which include a Leica MP, Nikon rangefinders, F, and a Rollei 35. The viewfinder isn’t going to win any awards, but it’s clear and decent.

The focus is very much motor driven, and happens when you half press the shutter. It seems clear that all that’s missing for autofocus is the electronics for determining focus. The lens assembly is already ready to be driven by autofocus. The zone focus selector only does something in the program modes. If you put it on full auto, it uses a small aperture and “pan focus”, which is supposedly 1m-infinity.

Anyway, I’ll post some photos when I have them.

 

[neal3k]

I've shot a test roll of B&W and am well into a color roll now that I hope to finish today. I've been very pleased with the results.

Dorsey Road - Pentax 17 Test by Neal Wellons, on Flickr

I decided to focus on in-camera diptychs as much as possible for a while and here are two examples.

Gate Diptych - Pentax 17 by Neal Wellons, on Flickr

Sweetgum Diptych - Pentax 17 by Neal Wellons, on Flickr

The first pair have the normal between frame line and the second was using Photoshop to create the boundary. I don't know which method I like the most yet.

These were shot with HP5+ at box speed and developed in FPP's HC110, dilution B. My only problem was with my fat thumb inadvertently moving the program dial and ruining a few shouts. I put a small piece of tape to secure the dial so I can easily remove it to change programs.

I love using the camera and I am 78.

 

[aw614]

Really surprised it is focus be wire, vs mechanically focusing the lens

 

[Disappointed_Horse]

I've shot a test roll of B&W and am well into a color roll now that I hope to finish today. I've been very pleased with the results.

Dorsey Road - Pentax 17 Test by Neal Wellons, on Flickr

I decided to focus on in-camera diptychs as much as possible for a while and here are two examples.

Gate Diptych - Pentax 17 by Neal Wellons, on Flickr

Sweetgum Diptych - Pentax 17 by Neal Wellons, on Flickr

The first pair have the normal between frame line and the second was using Photoshop to create the boundary. I don't know which method I like the most yet.

These were shot with HP5+ at box speed and developed in FPP's HC110, dilution B. My only problem was with my fat thumb inadvertently moving the program dial and ruining a few shouts. I put a small piece of tape to secure the dial so I can easily remove it to change programs.

I love using the camera and I am 78.

@neal3k Your photos look great. I would not have guessed that these are half frame photos with a fairly fast film.

 

[Godfrey]

The photos look good ... as I would expect from a good Pentax lens, to be honest, and there's nothing wrong with half-35 format. I just wish the little thing wasn't so darned ugly. But that's just me. 😉

Since I blew my first test roll of Ferrania P33 that I made with the Rollei 35S (now off for service to the meter...), I ran a second test roll in the Minox 35GT-E. I finished shooting all 36 frames yesterday, which took me a week and a half to accomplish. Whether there are any decent photos in that roll I'll find out later today when I process it, but I have to say that I've been reminded again of just how great a camera the little Minox 35GT-E is by this test roll. It's so handy, so easy to use (despite being manual focus!), and so quick ... I continue to wonder why a similar quality/size/speed/simplicity digital camera doesn't seem to be in the offing anywhere. Oh well. 🤔

G

 

[shawn]

I continue to wonder why a similar quality/size/speed/simplicity digital camera doesn't seem to be in the offing anywhere. Oh well. 🤔

G

A GRIII/GRIIIx is close in size to the Rollei 35S. A little wider, thinner and not quite as tall. Very quick camera to shoot. I don't have the Minox to compare to though.

 

[Godfrey]

A GRIII/GRIIIx is close in size to the Rollei 35S. A little wider, thinner and not quite as tall. Very quick camera to shoot. I don't have the Minox to compare to though.


View attachment 4840179

The Minox 35GT-E is a bit slimmer and a little lighter than the Rollei 35S (composite construction, rather than thin metal). I'd do a similar comparison photo, but my 35S is now on its way to service (for the meter coupling ... something has gone awry, probably the linkage fell off a pivot or something).

But the real difference is the simplicity of the Minox 35GT-E (and Rollei 35S) compared to any digital camera I've seen other than the Leica M-D typ 262 (should never have sold that one...). I like the GRIIIx particularly, but it still has a bunch of menus, mode selections, et cetera. The Minox 35GT-E has a focus control, an aperture control, an ISO control, a battery check button, a +1.2 EV compensation switch, and a self timer switch. There's just so little to need to learn with it .. of course, it rests on your understanding and knowledge as a photographer, not dedicated programming or scoping out the last exposure to see if you got it... The M-D 262 was like that too (with explicit manual exposure setting added), the Rollei 35S the same (minus the aperture priority exposure automation, only manual setting).

As time goes by, I appreciate more and more the simple cameras. They connect me more closely to what I am doing when I'm making photographs... 😀

G

 

[KoNickon]

The Minox 35GT-E is a bit slimmer and a little lighter than the Rollei 35S (composite construction, rather than thin metal). I'd do a similar comparison photo, but my 35S is now on its way to service (for the meter coupling ... something has gone awry, probably the linkage fell off a pivot or something).

But the real difference is the simplicity of the Minox 35GT-E (and Rollei 35S) compared to any digital camera I've seen other than the Leica M-D typ 262 (should never have sold that one...). I like the GRIIIx particularly, but it still has a bunch of menus, mode selections, et cetera. The Minox 35GT-E has a focus control, an aperture control, an ISO control, a battery check button, a +1.2 EV compensation switch, and a self timer switch. There's just so little to need to learn with it .. of course, it rests on your understanding and knowledge as a photographer, not dedicated programming or scoping out the last exposure to see if you got it... The M-D 262 was like that too (with explicit manual exposure setting added), the Rollei 35S the same (minus the aperture priority exposure automation, only manual setting).

As time goes by, I appreciate more and more the simple cameras. They connect me more closely to what I am doing when I'm making photographs... 😀

G

Agree. And to add on to that, too much choice (such as exposure modes) or complexity (menus!) can be real barriers to taking pictures, for me anyway. You can second guess yourself when there are too many options. I recently got a Nikkormat FS and Nikkor 50/2 -- no meter, and a normal lens; doesn't get too much simpler than that!

 

[Retro-Grouch]

Agree. And to add on to that, too much choice (such as exposure modes) or complexity (menus!) can be real barriers to taking pictures, for me anyway. You can second guess yourself when there are too many options. I recently got a Nikkormat FS and Nikkor 50/2 -- no meter, and a normal lens; doesn't get too much simpler than that!

You are hereby welcomed into the Elite Order of Retro-Grouches!
(...even if you didn't request it.) 😉

 

[KoNickon]

I've been one ever since the days of Grant Peterson and Bridgestone bicycles (that's the first place I heard the term). But I appreciate the validation! 🙂

 

[shawn]

The Minox 35GT-E is a bit slimmer and a little lighter than the Rollei 35S (composite construction, rather than thin metal). I'd do a similar comparison photo, but my 35S is now on its way to service (for the meter coupling ... something has gone awry, probably the linkage fell off a pivot or something).

But the real difference is the simplicity of the Minox 35GT-E (and Rollei 35S) compared to any digital camera I've seen other than the Leica M-D typ 262 (should never have sold that one...). I like the GRIIIx particularly, but it still has a bunch of menus, mode selections, et cetera. The Minox 35GT-E has a focus control, an aperture control, an ISO control, a battery check button, a +1.2 EV compensation switch, and a self timer switch. There's just so little to need to learn with it .. of course, it rests on your understanding and knowledge as a photographer, not dedicated programming or scoping out the last exposure to see if you got it... The M-D 262 was like that too (with explicit manual exposure setting added), the Rollei 35S the same (minus the aperture priority exposure automation, only manual setting).

As time goes by, I appreciate more and more the simple cameras. They connect me more closely to what I am doing when I'm making photographs... 😀

G

It isn't like you need to menu dive for every shot you ever take. Set it the way you want and then don't use the menus. As a raw shooter either set it to a fixed ISO and go or set auto iso to a way you want and shoot, or shoot ISO invariant if the camera happens to be so. About the only thing I ever change is the color mode on the GRIII and that is quick and easy.

You won't really find a digital with just the settings of a film camera since the film camera also has 'settings' that aren't part of the camera itself but choices of what you load into it.

 

[shawn]

Agree. And to add on to that, too much choice (such as exposure modes) or complexity (menus!) can be real barriers to taking pictures, for me anyway. You can second guess yourself when there are too many options. I recently got a Nikkormat FS and Nikkor 50/2 -- no meter, and a normal lens; doesn't get too much simpler than that!

Sure that can happen and that can happen on any type of camera that has any sort of automation features.

But that goes away as one learns their equipment and understands how it reacts to different situations. If one is chimping after every shot they either aren't trusting themselves or their equipment.

It really isn't any different then learning to trust yourself to go out and shoot meterless on film. Do you take 15 exposures of every shot or do you trust that you got it with one?

 

[KoNickon]

I think part of my point is, why would I get a camera with all those features in the first place? And if I only use the basics, don't make it hard for me to find those basic settings.

 

[shawn]

I think part of my point is, why would I get a camera with all those features in the first place? And if I only use the basics, don't make it hard for me to find those basic settings.

So you can set it up the way you want to so that it works for you.

Not everyone will want the same configuration as you.

That is the point of all those settings.

Granted, knowing what you want (and where to find it) can be overwhelming, at first. But then you learn what is typically available and you set the camera in a way that makes sense for you.

For example, autofocus. A common setting that can be changed is focus priority or release priority. Some people will want one way, some will want the other. And this is OK and why cameras allow you to change that. (Sometimes you want that different for AF-S vs AF-C) Likewise... do you want the camera to focus with the shutter button or do you want focus to be a discrete control? Some want it one way, some want it the other. Neither is correct for everyone. That is why it is adjustable. I personally love back button focus, not everyone does. These types of settings aren't new to digital, my F5 has them.

Many cameras literally have the equivalent of a "My Menu" (or Quick Menu... or both) where you can pick and choose what menu options you want displayed in there. That gives you quick access to what you might want to change. Typically, once you set that up that is the menu that is displayed first so that you have quick and easy access to those settings without having to go menu diving. Only have 3 settings you typically change... put those three in the "My Menu" and that is all you will see when you first go into the menu. You very likely can also assign those three settings to physical controls on the camera.

But you can't do any of this if the camera doesn't have the settings to allow this.

 

[Godfrey]

It isn't like you need to menu dive for every shot you ever take. Set it the way you want and then don't use the menus. As a raw shooter either set it to a fixed ISO and go or set auto iso to a way you want and shoot, or shoot ISO invariant if the camera happens to be so. About the only thing I ever change is the color mode on the GRIII and that is quick and easy.

Of course. ...

You won't really find a digital with just the settings of a film camera since the film camera also has 'settings' that aren't part of the camera itself but choices of what you load into it.

...Look at the Leica M-D typ 262 .. I should never had sold it. 🙁

IMHO, most of the youngsters I know who are trying to learn Photography are confuzed because they see all these options and assume they need to use them for something. The minimalist joy of having only raw capture, no display, etc, eliminates all the bs of configuration required.

G

 

[shawn]

Another example of this...

Ergonomically, I don't like having the play button be a button that you need the left hand to press. My Leica's did this. (M240, X Vario) and the original X100 did this too. It bugs me.

My Panasonic S1R has a ton of physical controls on it to give direct access to a bunch of settings.

Yet, it has the play button as a left hand control. That bugged me. Unlike the Leica or early Fuji, the Panasonic lets me remap the play button to another button of my choosing. I love that.

For someone else this might not be an issue at all.

They may have a different issue that they corrected that I don't care about.

That is why cameras are configurable. it really is about making it right for the user.

 

[Godfrey]

Um, a philosophical question:
My film cameras do not have a playback capability. Why should my digital camera?

I'm going to the Post Office now..

G

 

[shawn]

Of course. ...

...Look at the Leica M-D typ 262 .. I should never had sold it. 🙁

G

It has ISO, something not on a film camera beyond the setting for metering.

And realistically, the M-D 262 just pushed other settings into post since you have to deal with WB, color/B&W, tone, NR, sharpening etc... on the computer as it is DNG only and can't produce a finished image by itself.

If you want to make all those decisions after the fact you can do the same thing with almost any digital camera. Just shoot raw and adjust ISO. If you have an ISO invariant camera you don't even have to adjust ISO, shoot at base with whatever shutter and aperture setting you desire (other than clipping) and adjust exposure in post.

The only thing stopping you, is you.

 

[shawn]

Um, a philosophical question:
My film cameras do not have a playback capability. Why should my digital camera?

I'm going to the Post Office now..

G

Because film photographers never used polaroid backs to check exposure... right?

Or used polaroids to have a finished product ready to share immediately.

 

[Godfrey]

It has ISO, something not on a film camera beyond the setting for metering.

And realistically, the M-D 262 just pushed other settings into post since you have to deal with WB, color/B&W, tone, NR, sharpening etc... on the computer as it is DNG only and can't produce a finished image by itself.

If you want to make all those decisions after the fact you can do the same thing with almost any digital camera. Just shoot raw and adjust ISO. If you have an ISO invariant camera you don't even have to adjust ISO, shoot at base with whatever shutter and aperture setting you desire (other than clipping) and adjust exposure in post.

The only thing stopping you, is you.

The ISO dial is essentially the same as the ASA dial on my M6. The fact that the ISO dial is changing the sensitivity AND setting the meter response curve vs just setting the meter response curve is irrelevant. With my M6, ALL rendering activities are post-capture, it cannot produce a finished image by itself either ... so the M-D 262 is simply doing exactly the same thing. Which is my point: Simplicity in operation for capture, easy to learn and remember controls.

Because film photographers never used polaroid backs to check exposure... right?

Or used polaroids to have a finished product ready to share immediately.

Just guess at how many 35mm camera owners shot instant print pictures to "check exposure" ... ?? LOL!!!
Or even medium format or 4x5 camera users ... Even there the numbers are a minute fraction of the camera owners... I never needed a polaroid back to pre-visualize what my Nikons, Contaxes, Leicas, Hasselblads, Rolleiflexes, Mamiyas, et al, were going to do on film, or check what I had just captured. I don't 'chimp' today with my digital cameras when I'm out shooting... I have my displays turned off, review turned off, etc.

Look, you do not seem to understand: I did not say that what exists in digital cameras is UNUSABLE . I said that I find it unnecessarily complicated and that nothing as simple and elegant as the Minox 35GT-E exists in a digital camera, modulo the existence of the Leica M-D 262 ... which isn't as compact, light weight, and handy to carry. That's all.

I look at the Pentax 17 and I wonder: "Why did it need to be focus by wire? Why did it need six mode settings and no capability for manual exposure? Why couldn't they have styled it simply and made its controls simple and elegant? Why does it have to emulate a modern compact digital camera?" Et cetera. Compared against the Rollei 35S and Minox 35GT-E, never mind the Petri Color 35, the Minolta TC-1, the Olympus Pen EE, and other beautiful, compact 35 film cameras, it is a question mark.

Hmm ... Does anyone else want to further the discussion on the "Pentax film camera project"? It's been a while... 😀

G