More Urbex Criminal and Dangerous Behavior

Gotcha. No wonder we threw you guys out of our country. 😉[/quote]

I know little about that particular argument other than it was about representation.The people had non so they correctly took the only action open to them. I don`t feel that is the case today although there are sections of the community that have not got enough representation. I think however that you need to think carefully about equating corrupt with ruling class. Whilst that may sometimes be true it is the rule of law and its acceptance by the people that keeps us all safely in our beds at night.
 
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bmattock said:
Thanks, Al, sincerely.
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You pick "individual" pieces of a msg that you like and listen to it, Let it feed your ego, then ignore everything else.
Yet you keep clumping people together into types. I guess the search for positivity is only to hear good things about yourself and the search for negativity is for clumping criminals together.
 
excellent said:
Yet you keep clumping people together into types.
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You objected to my use of the term 'urbex types' and I explained why I chose the term and asked what you'd prefer I use. Instead of answering, you complained that I referred to people with the same name just because they happen to enjoy the same thing. Yes, I do. That's what names are for, in general terms. 'Urbex' is a portmanteau word, concatenating 'urban' and 'explorer'. Nor did I make up the word myself, it's the term those who engage in it apparently prefer to be called.

How dare I refer to urban explorers as urban explorer 'types'? I'm sorry to disappoint, but I see no compelling reason not to do so, nor do I see anything negative or demeaning in being referred to as a 'type'. I once again welcome your input as to what word I could employ it its stead. Perhaps 'sort'. Those urbex sorts has a rather British ring to it, but I could go with that if you prefer.
 
climbing_vine said:
Also... A crime is self-evidently not a crime. Exhibit #1: Different crimes have different punishments.

QED.

Your argument needs to be refined.
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For anyone who grew up being taught moral relativism, you may be right. Those of us taught the difference between right and wrong understand where I'm coming from.

Of course different crimes have different punishments. If I urinate on the side of your house should I receive the same punishment as if I stole your car, or killed someone who I thought needed it?

QED, not!
 
dfoo said:
But that is crap! There are millions of laws on the books that are complete nonsense.

It wasn't that long ago that there were segregation laws on the books. Are you telling me that was right?! How about the anti-jewish laws in nazi-german times. That is, and always will be, nothing more than the call of the weak.
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There are ,or should be ,robust ways of getting those laws changed. I come from Irish stock so know a bit about unjust laws and ruling classes. I still feel that the democratic processes that we enjoy despite their numerous imperfections are the best means to modify unsuitable laws. I don`t feel that this particular issue is on the same scale as those that you have mentioned . Bill was asked at the beginning of this thread to exrcise proportion and I think that also applies to the counter argument. I see no imperative to take to the streets over the right to Urbex.🙂 I am not suggesting that where representation is lacking or the laws are so punitive ,that there is no place for such action.
 
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bmattock said:
You objected to my use of the term 'urbex types' and I explained why I chose the term and asked what you'd prefer I use. Instead of answering, you complained that I referred to people with the same name just because they happen to enjoy the same thing. Yes, I do. That's what names are for, in general terms. 'Urbex' is a portmanteau word, concatenating 'urban' and 'explorer'. Nor did I make up the word myself, it's the term those who engage in it apparently prefer to be called.

How dare I refer to urban explorers as urban explorer 'types'? I'm sorry to disappoint, but I see no compelling reason not to do so, nor do I see anything negative or demeaning in being referred to as a 'type'. I once again welcome your input as to what word I could employ it its stead. Perhaps 'sort'. Those urbex sorts has a rather British ring to it, but I could go with that if you prefer.
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Did every "urbex type" push that car out the window or was it just one of them?
 
Paul T. said:
The obvious counter-argument to this, is that Bill will claim Urbex photographers are mere vandals, and are not protesting against immoral laws. What we must remember, when he does this, is by describing photographers, on this board, many of whom have committed no criminal act as "scum" , and arguing that property is more important than human lives, he is quite consciously allying himself with the kind of law-makers who saw some Americans as less than human.
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As I continue to enjoy pointing out, when a person obeys the law, they are bad. Breaking the law, that's good.

Please do go on defining my lawful behavior as somehow wrong, evil, to be avoided at all costs. I am quite enjoying it.
 
antiquark said:
That's why juries exist (in theory). A jury can decide that a law is unjust and nullify it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
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Which would imply that an urbex type would want to stick around, be arrested, and then convince a jury to throw out laws against trespass. Why do they keep running away and not take their photos to the police and turn themselves in, demanding a jury trial? Or is it that they're not actually engaging in civil disobedience, but simply satisfying their own selfish desires, regardless of the property rights of others?
 
archive59 said:
Trespass is not a criminal act in the UK, which is why there is a law against 'criminal trespass' ie trespassing with the intention to commit a criminal act. You are not breaking and entering a property if the door is left open and if you do not intend to do anything illegal (although some people do seem to think photography is against the law here in the UK) where is the problem?
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For me, the law is the arbiter. If trespass is not a criminal offense in some countries, then trespassers have only civil actions to worry about. What I object to is the notion that one can and should escape the consequences of the law as a result of one's own personal beliefs. The fact that civil disobedience has a long and valuable history is not because people expected to by ignored by a law they considered unjust, but because they expected the law to be applied to them, thus exposing its unjustness.

So, if people believe that breaking into and photography derelict buildings is a cause that merits the risk of arrest and punishment, then they ought to frame that behavior as civil disobedience and take the consequences. If not, they're just making up excuses to get away with something.
 
I´m not much of a Christian, but I am a big fan of "...forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those who trespass against us" and "do unto others....."

But the high moral ground the OP and a few others profess is a bit rich for me. They are evidently without sin...
 
Ezzie said:
But the high moral ground the OP and a few others profess is a bit rich for me. They are evidently without sin...
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Certainly not without sin, I'm quite a sinner. However, I don't break into other people's property. Or were you issuing a general condemnation of anyone having an opinion on illegal behavior unless they personally walk on water?
 
I know trespassing is illegal, but does that make it fundamentally wrong? After all, what good are run-down buildings to owners who neglect to use them for anything? Does the act of entering these buildings significantly harm anyone?(vandalism aside; that is a different matter altogether)

At least in exploration, the buildings are put to some use. One could see photographing them as a means of producing found art, even. Personally, I would rather support ventures of aesthetic appreciation and suffer complaints from stingy land owners than sit at home and shoot cat portraits.
 
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