Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Here's a
Tamarkin has this MP on the 'bay; says it's fake. I emailed to ask how they knew. The answer I got was, "I don't have time to explain all the details in an email, but it is a fake." This, to a (for all they know) potential bidder. But it looks like an MP should look. I'm sure no one made it in their basement. It is engraved MP with a serial number within the range assigned to chrome MPs. It has the manual-reset frame counter; has no self-timer, has the MP/M3 style finder window frames. In short, I see nothing about it that doesn't look MP.
I'm sure they are correct. They wouldn't say it was fake if they thought it was real. I asked whether they thought someone had replaced the top cover with a replacement one and engraved it MP-287. But Tamarkin didn't respond to that--only saying they didn't have time to discuss it.
So what do my Leica colleagues think about this? Can you tell it's fake? Have I missed something?
EDIT: I don't seem to know how to make HTML work on this forum. Here's the URL: http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280164789365&rd=1
HTML:
<a href="http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280164789365&rd=1">LINK</a>I'm sure they are correct. They wouldn't say it was fake if they thought it was real. I asked whether they thought someone had replaced the top cover with a replacement one and engraved it MP-287. But Tamarkin didn't respond to that--only saying they didn't have time to discuss it.
So what do my Leica colleagues think about this? Can you tell it's fake? Have I missed something?
EDIT: I don't seem to know how to make HTML work on this forum. Here's the URL: http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280164789365&rd=1
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ferider
Veteran
The MP picture in front of me (#392, Leica - The First Sixty Years) has
buddha ears. Tamarkin's fake doesn't.
Also, there might be internals (finder etc) different that they have access
to and we don't.
Maybe based on an M2 ?
I'm no expert though,
Roland.
buddha ears. Tamarkin's fake doesn't.
Also, there might be internals (finder etc) different that they have access
to and we don't.
Maybe based on an M2 ?
I'm no expert though,
Roland.
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This looks almost identical to my M2, including strap lugs, with a major exception being the shape of the front face of the top cover, mine not having the "window frames". Or the Leicavit of course...
Dan States
Established
You've got to love a retailer who tells their customers they don't have time to discuss things with them! Lovely people!
Pablito
coco frío
Dan States said:
'specially things they expect to sell for so much money. I lived in NYC for 17 years - Manhattan - and I found ALL these "boutique" camera shops to be hard to take. The attitude in the e-mail is precisely the attitude I experienced in the store.
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
It's not that I don't believe Stan. But I want to know as much as I can about spotting fakes.
Heaven forbid that the actual knowledge of how to spot a fake is published...why, that would only make it easier for less savvy buyers to make good buying decisions, and would reduce the interest and value of the fakes, and reduce the ratio of fakes from 5 or 10:1 to something quite a bit less, and result in less incentive for people to create fakes in the first place.
Mazurka
Well-known
Well, at least Tamarkin didn't tell you to join a collectors club where members learn everything from one another and never read any books about collecting so that they won't be regarded as pathetic loners. 
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LeicaTom
Watch that step!
A REAL MP is stupid money, I once knew someone with THREE of them in his collection
Two chrome ones and a black one, the chrome ones were both mint boxed and I got to touch one of them! Hahahahahahhaaaa!
Well, the attitude from the message, really was`nt meant to be mean or rude I think, there`s just so many differnet things that make up a cameras structure and when it`s rare and a special type of camera such as the MP was, there`s lot`s of little things that all make up the final product, I imagine that it would take time to explain, I`ve tried to explain the things to look for in a real Grey Leica IIIC or K model and it`s alot a simple email would`nt do, so there`s quite alot of little things about it these cameras that make them uniquely apart from the others, I talk to a few Auction houses that deal in old Leica stuff and they are pretty busy people I can see where they are coming from to, to explain why something`s NOT real is pretty much a waste of time, if I was selling something like that I`d explain how unique it was that time and effort was taken to make a fake in the quality this one is.....
It was nice that they listed it as a fake, these come up so rarely in real life for sale, it was very well done with the original Leicavit MP (WHICH IS A VERY RARE COLLECTORS ITEM IN ITSELF) and I guess it`s a bargain for what you would pay for a REAL one would be maybe 5 or 6 times that amount - WOULD WORK AS A NICE FILM PROP IN A MOVIE
I also heard a story once that an ex Leitz technician had made some cameras like this for himself Leica 72 *Half Frame* and a MP etc. quite possible this may have been one of those cameras, but the stamped serial number range also states a possible criminal act as well, so someone was trying to get over on somebody perhaps?
Many M cameras also had modifications done to them in the 1960`s to MP specs, but that too would have remained with the cameras original serial number range, the case in point here is that this was intentionally done for sure
It`s just like the cloning of vintage musclecars, the REAL Shelby Mustangs and Hemi Cudas are so rare and so expensive, that "clones" are in vogue with collectors now.........I suppose that time will come with cameras as well, but they are a whole lot eaiser to fake or clone than a car is, I`ve seen 3 fake IIIC K`s in the last 6 months or so....it`s best to be in with experts if you are buying a high dollar valued camera, so you know what you are getting for your money, many cameras have collectors history which in itself sometimes is very interesting
Tom
Two chrome ones and a black one, the chrome ones were both mint boxed and I got to touch one of them! Hahahahahahhaaaa!
Well, the attitude from the message, really was`nt meant to be mean or rude I think, there`s just so many differnet things that make up a cameras structure and when it`s rare and a special type of camera such as the MP was, there`s lot`s of little things that all make up the final product, I imagine that it would take time to explain, I`ve tried to explain the things to look for in a real Grey Leica IIIC or K model and it`s alot a simple email would`nt do, so there`s quite alot of little things about it these cameras that make them uniquely apart from the others, I talk to a few Auction houses that deal in old Leica stuff and they are pretty busy people I can see where they are coming from to, to explain why something`s NOT real is pretty much a waste of time, if I was selling something like that I`d explain how unique it was that time and effort was taken to make a fake in the quality this one is.....
It was nice that they listed it as a fake, these come up so rarely in real life for sale, it was very well done with the original Leicavit MP (WHICH IS A VERY RARE COLLECTORS ITEM IN ITSELF) and I guess it`s a bargain for what you would pay for a REAL one would be maybe 5 or 6 times that amount - WOULD WORK AS A NICE FILM PROP IN A MOVIE
I also heard a story once that an ex Leitz technician had made some cameras like this for himself Leica 72 *Half Frame* and a MP etc. quite possible this may have been one of those cameras, but the stamped serial number range also states a possible criminal act as well, so someone was trying to get over on somebody perhaps?
Many M cameras also had modifications done to them in the 1960`s to MP specs, but that too would have remained with the cameras original serial number range, the case in point here is that this was intentionally done for sure
It`s just like the cloning of vintage musclecars, the REAL Shelby Mustangs and Hemi Cudas are so rare and so expensive, that "clones" are in vogue with collectors now.........I suppose that time will come with cameras as well, but they are a whole lot eaiser to fake or clone than a car is, I`ve seen 3 fake IIIC K`s in the last 6 months or so....it`s best to be in with experts if you are buying a high dollar valued camera, so you know what you are getting for your money, many cameras have collectors history which in itself sometimes is very interesting
Tom
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Sucked in by angry trolls? Or just short on logic?
MikeL
Go Fish
Fred learned through hard work. Why doesn't everyone else?
MikeL
Go Fish
Al Patterson said:
In the words of Obi-Wan, "Run Fred Run!"
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
The MP is a popular camera to fake! According to a friend and world renowned Leica expert" Out of the 416 MP's made - at least 800 are fakes!
To authenticicate a MP you need to take it apart. The gear train is hardened steel, rather than brass.The chassi has a MP number engraved on it.
There were also a sunbstantial amount of spare top plates mede for the MP. When it came out in 1957, it was aimed at pro-shooters, who had (and still has) a penchant for using stuff hard. Thus Leica made up a unpecified number of replacement top plates with the MP engraving, but no serial number. I used to have one of these, a black one to boot. Ended up giving it away as I am not interested in making "fakes" person who got it, had an original black MP with a seriously bashed up top plate!.
Re Tamarkin's camera, the Leicavit is worth about $2000, the lens maybe $500 and the fake MP about $1200-1500. His price is not to far off, but I would not buy it!
The "rabbit" ear cover is not a safe indicator. The original M3/MP covers had strap lugs made of brass and these wore out, so many users switched to the M2/M4 style "shell" instead and there are cases where selftimers were added and M2 viewfinders installed.
Because of the relatively low volume of MP's made, most of them are well documented and if some one is trying to pass one off as an original, there are experts who can authenticate them (Jim Lager, Luigi Cane, Peter Coeln etc).
The MP was a"designated" pro camera and most of them lived hard lifes. I used to work with a set of them and never warmed to it. The advance is quite rough due to the case hardened steel gears, the Leicavit is prone to stretching the chain and screw up advance. The lever was also sharp enough to perform impromptu appendectomies if you fell on it. As a user, I much prefer the M2 and the "new" MP.
To authenticicate a MP you need to take it apart. The gear train is hardened steel, rather than brass.The chassi has a MP number engraved on it.
There were also a sunbstantial amount of spare top plates mede for the MP. When it came out in 1957, it was aimed at pro-shooters, who had (and still has) a penchant for using stuff hard. Thus Leica made up a unpecified number of replacement top plates with the MP engraving, but no serial number. I used to have one of these, a black one to boot. Ended up giving it away as I am not interested in making "fakes" person who got it, had an original black MP with a seriously bashed up top plate!.
Re Tamarkin's camera, the Leicavit is worth about $2000, the lens maybe $500 and the fake MP about $1200-1500. His price is not to far off, but I would not buy it!
The "rabbit" ear cover is not a safe indicator. The original M3/MP covers had strap lugs made of brass and these wore out, so many users switched to the M2/M4 style "shell" instead and there are cases where selftimers were added and M2 viewfinders installed.
Because of the relatively low volume of MP's made, most of them are well documented and if some one is trying to pass one off as an original, there are experts who can authenticate them (Jim Lager, Luigi Cane, Peter Coeln etc).
The MP was a"designated" pro camera and most of them lived hard lifes. I used to work with a set of them and never warmed to it. The advance is quite rough due to the case hardened steel gears, the Leicavit is prone to stretching the chain and screw up advance. The lever was also sharp enough to perform impromptu appendectomies if you fell on it. As a user, I much prefer the M2 and the "new" MP.
BillBingham2
Registered User
I found that most experts, Nikons, Leicas, cars, if approached on their terms, with respect and perhaps sevreal times are willing to share their knowledge. Keep in mind that it has cost many experts lots of time and money (the hard ways) to learn.
Give it a try in person after season. Take the time to develop a releationship with him, it goes a long way to his trusting that you will not misuse your knowedge. Making a better fake is something the world does not need.
B2 (;->
Give it a try in person after season. Take the time to develop a releationship with him, it goes a long way to his trusting that you will not misuse your knowedge. Making a better fake is something the world does not need.
B2 (;->
Rob-F
Likes Leicas
Thanks to both Toms--LeicaTom and Tom A. These are the things I wanted to know. I'm learning a lot here, not the least of which is that I can count on both of you when I want to learn more, on my way to becoming a little more of an "expert" each day than I was the day before. I have been shooting with Leicas for over 40 years, and have 12 of them now that I use regularly. I never pass up a chance to learn a little more!
Thanks to all who contributed to my thread.
Thanks to all who contributed to my thread.