"My cameras don't explode"

[ch1]

This molehill is growing into a mountain.

Suggest all calm down a bit. The reality is that people get curious when they see someone taking photos. Just as they like to look over a painter's shoulder when she or he is painting.

Agreed that some (quite a few - perhaps) security guards act rude and abruptly - that's what they're hired to do!

But as anselwannab pointed out - taking the high road is a valid, and often wiser choice.

And as ywenz noted - there can be legitimate concerns when someone is taking pics of private property (e.g. "casing" a place for a robbery or industrial espionage etc.).

I suggest we relax a bit about big brother. After all, as the original poster noted, the security guard did not try to stop him from shooting and just walked away!

 

[Pherdinand]

the only time security wanted to stop em taking pictures, i told them"but it's too late, i already took some shots!" wh9ich was a big lie but i enjoyed it. So then they said "OK, but please don't take more".
That's all about them.

 

[Andy K]

Know your Rights:

In the US

In the UK

 

[ikophot]

Is this mainly an US phenomena? I have read several threads here with this theme, but hardly any from Europe. Are the Europeans on this site too lazy to write about their experciances with police and rent-a-cops, or does it occur less over here? Would be interesting to know, I have never been told not to take pictures

 

[ch1]

Is this mainly an US phenomena? I have read several threads here with this theme, but hardly any from Europe. Are the Europeans on this site too lazy to write about their experciances with police and rent-a-cops, or does it occur less over here? Would be interesting to know, I have never been told not to take pictures

Actually, if you look up to the early posts - it seems it is illegal to take pictures on a beach in Portugal. It was that comment that started to turn this into a "big brother" discussion.

As I noted earlier, in NYC I have never, ever been questioned when taking a picture on publlic property.

In fact, come to think of it, I've never been challenged anywhere in the US while being on public or quasi-public property.

Maybe we Americans are just more "sensitive" about challenges to our "rights"?

 

[Socke]

Disclaimer, I don't want to insult anybody and I don't intend to criticise any government anywhere

But this is RFF and we can say what we think and stay real good budies :angel:

Actualy I fear visiting the USA for several reasons, I hosted strong crypto for linux once, I visited Cuba and PR China and I take photos when I travel. Did so in NY and Boston in december 1998 including the twin towers.

When I was in the german navy in the 80's I shot in Norfolk and Rosevelt Roads. I have pictures from various US naval vessels at sea and in a harbour.

So please, give me some positive news. It can't be all that bad! I want to visit my aunt in San Francisco some time!

Coast-defence in Matanzas/Cuba, they don't care if you take a picture.

 

[Krasnaya_Zvezda]

This molehill is growing into a mountain.

Suggest all calm down a bit. The reality is that people get curious when they see someone taking photos. Just as they like to look over a painter's shoulder when she or he is painting.

Agreed that some (quite a few - perhaps) security guards act rude and abruptly - that's what they're hired to do!

But as anselwannab pointed out - taking the high road is a valid, and often wiser choice.

And as ywenz noted - there can be legitimate concerns when someone is taking pics of private property (e.g. "casing" a place for a robbery or industrial espionage etc.).

I suggest we relax a bit about big brother. After all, as the original poster noted, the security guard did not try to stop him from shooting and just walked away!

I don't believe this is a trivial matter at all, that can be resolved by a smile and an explanation of innocence ("I'm just taking a picture, sir...")
The point is, to too many people now, someone taking a photo is automatically considered suspicious. Photography is not illegal, neither are cameras. Neither is walking down a public street. To acquiesce to questioning by some "authority" while doing any of these legal acts is in my opinion an infringement upon my rights as a citizen of this country. And if I meekly submit to their questioning, I'm merely feeding into their paranoid thinking.
The recent episode of the guy in Southlake who was arrested for "improper photography" is a great example. The guy was doing nothing wrong, and that was finally established by the DA. But the poor guy's reputation is ruined. Somebody saw a camera in that person's hand, didn't understand what he was doing with it, and his name is subsequently smeared.
I do not shoot my mouth off here and stick my neck out without having had some discussions with about this with a friend of mine, who is a detective in the Internal Affairs dept. of the Dallas Police Dept. We have had several conversations about the abuse of authority, and he has told me more than once to stand my ground when confronted by these misguided goons. You don't have to answer their questions, you don't have to give them your name--- not even to an on-duty police officer. This is not a police state--- yet. In Texas, at least, failure to identify yourself is not a crime. Doesn't mean, and my friend will be quick to point this out, that they will not try to take you down for it--- but they are in the wrong, and they are violating your rights when they do it.
Sorry to get so long winded. I'm tired of being questioned and treated as if I'm under suspicion, when I'm just taking a photo of some falling-down old bricks.
I think you have to stand up for your rights. If you don't, you'll lose them. We as photographers are being harassed for pursuing our craft. We have to fight back whenever we can.
And yes, I keep my IA friend's phone number with me all the time, just in case.

 

[bmattock]

Actually, if you look up to the early posts - it seems it is illegal to take pictures on a beach in Portugal. It was that comment that started to turn this into a "big brother" discussion.

As I noted earlier, in NYC I have never, ever been questioned when taking a picture on publlic property.

In fact, come to think of it, I've never been challenged anywhere in the US while being on public or quasi-public property.

Maybe we Americans are just more "sensitive" about challenges to our "rights"?

It was in the months after 9/11 that some men were arrested taking photos of 'tall buildings' in some large city - not NYC, but I don't recall which one. Were they doing something horrible? Making plans for an attack? I have no idea. But they were arrested, and no one really questioned it. We were all too scared - me too.

I think there is a philosophical difference between the US and most other countries with regard to 'rights' but I mean NO disrespect to any other country's legal system by that. Most of Europe is much older than the US, and people there have been born into legal systems handed down in one way or another from centuries ago. From Kings and Queens and so on, down to the slow evolution of the concepts of rights for individuals, and now to what freedoms they may enjoy today. In the USA, freedom was wrested away rather suddenly and fostered by some guy with crazy ideas about personal liberties.

What it boils down to, I think, is that in the USA, the concept has been fostered that citizens have ALL the rights - except what power they expressly give the government. A real feeling that the government is subserviant to the people, or at least it is supposed to be. That governments draw their legitimate authority only from the express consent of the governed. In other words, 'that which is not prohibited is permitted', as opposed to 'that which is not permitted is prohibited'.

Not everyone in the USA believes this anymore - and I don't want to start a war here, we've had enough discontent on RFF - I am not saying what's right and wrong about people's governments. But this does go to the question - do people in the USA feel differently about their 'rights'? Yes, some of us do. I'm not saying it is better or worse, just different.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Andy K]

Know your Rights:

In the US

In the UK

 

[ikophot]

Well i think I am as sensitive as any american about my rights, liberty and civic rights is not solely an american concept. It ticks me off a little bit implying that people who live in Europe should not care about their rights in a free and democratic society. I was just making an observation that most of threads I read about this subject seems to be about american conditions. The explanation could very well be that most members are from the US and are writing about what they now. Maybe this problem is common in Europe but I it is not reflected here to the same extent

 

[bmattock]

Disclaimer, I don't want to insult anybody and I don't intend to criticise any government anywhere

But this is RFF and we can say what we think and stay real good budies :angel:

Actualy I fear visiting the USA for several reasons, I hosted strong crypto for linux once, I visited Cuba and PR China and I take photos when I travel. Did so in NY and Boston in december 1998 including the twin towers.

When I was in the german navy in the 80's I shot in Norfolk and Rosevelt Roads. I have pictures from various US naval vessels at sea and in a harbour.

So please, give me some positive news. It can't be all that bad! I want to visit my aunt in San Francisco some time!

Coast-defence in Matanzas/Cuba, they don't care if you take a picture.

Going to PRC is not prohibited in the USA - China has 'most favored nation' trading status, for heck's sake! The USA has a financial embargo against Cuba, but that only applies to US citizens and permanent residents, I don't think you'll have any problems for having been there. Your photos were absolutely legal when you took them, and would be today if they were even possible to take them.

The USA has not turned into a police state overnight, and I doubt you'd see much different now. But things have changed in subtle ways, and that's how things usually change. It takes years, decades. Feel free to come, I don't think you'll even see a major difference.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

Well i think I am as sensitive as any american about my rights, liberty and civic rights is not solely an american concept. It ticks me off a little bit implying that people who live in Europe should not care about their rights in a free and democratic society. I was just making an observation that most of threads I read about this subject seems to be about american conditions. The explanation could very well be that most members are from the US and are writing about what they now. Maybe this problem is common in Europe but I it is not reflected here to the same extent

Actually, I'm very glad to hear that others feel the same way. I don't know why there is not more outcry against loss of rights in other countries besides the USA. But if you read the UK's "Amatuer Photographer" magazine, there has been a lot of coverage about the right to photograph in public places being shut down. Very bad mojo and some folks quite upset over it.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

Sorry to get so long winded. I'm tired of being questioned and treated as if I'm under suspicion, when I'm just taking a photo of some falling-down old bricks.
I think you have to stand up for your rights. If you don't, you'll lose them. We as photographers are being harassed for pursuing our craft. We have to fight back whenever we can.
And yes, I keep my IA friend's phone number with me all the time, just in case.

I like the way you think!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Jocko]

Is this mainly an US phenomena? I have read several threads here with this theme, but hardly any from Europe. Are the Europeans on this site too lazy to write about their experciances with police and rent-a-cops, or does it occur less over here? Would be interesting to know, I have never been told not to take pictures

I think it's different over here - at least in the UK. Firstly "rent-a-cops" are largely ignored and secondly, because of our experience of terrorism, there is less of the rather naive paranoia that often seems to mark US security. Our particular folk-devils are perverts, not terrorists; photographing children is the real no-no. The level of popular madness is such that I for one would never dare risk it.

 

[ikophot]

Yes we must stand up for our rights both in Europe and the US, if we are not doing anything illegal we should not be tolerating to be harassed with no cause. Many thinks that I cave in for this I will be left alone, but what is the next step, cops taking away suspicious books on public places? This is the end of my rant, but I think these issues are too serious to ignore

 

[Socke]

Bill, you might love this poem from Martin Niemöller which is often attributed to Bert Brecht.

Sorry for the rough translation:

When the Nazis got the communists, I had been silent;  
I was no communist.
  
When they locked up the Social Democrats, I had been silent;
 I was no Social Democrat.  

When they got the trade unionists, I had been silent;  
I was no trade unionist.  

When they got the Jews, I had been silent, 
I was no Jew.  

When they got me, 
there was none left who could protest.

Hell, it took two world wars to get germany free, I'll do my best to keep it that way!

 

[Trius]

Listen guy, if it's a private building, they have all the right to come up to you and ask if you were taking pictures of their building. Wouldn't you be compelled to do the same if someone walked up and started snapping away at your house?

Nope. If they were on the sidewalk or right-of-way, I would have absolutely no right to object. And even if they weren't, why
would I be so freakin' paranoid. A picture is going to hurt me? If someone wants to do something bad to my house or to me, do you think they're going to walk up to my house in plain view and take a eff-in' picture while I'm watching them? 😉 At the very worst they'll photograph the joint with an extreme telephoto while I'm away.

Same applies for corporate espionage. They're going to be a helluva lot more sophisticated than that.

Oh, and we just had our house painted this summer, so if someone stops and takes a picture, I'm flattered. 😀

Earl

 

[bmicklea]

I have to agree with the prevailing opinion. Being polite and friendly is a good first step (cut me some slack here I'm Canadian after all) but if someone is abusive or disrespectful of you then you have to stand up to them. Regardless of who they are or what their position is. Regardless, in my opinion, of rights - yours or theirs. If everyone respected abusive and disrespectful actions strictly based on the law then slavery would still be in effect. I don't mean to be hyperbolic but for me anyways, it's an important guiding principle.

That said I do think it's important to protect yourself and know your rights. Apparently from what I've read, in Canada you can be charged for taking photos of someone without their consent if they are clearly the main subject of the photo and are clearly identifiable. This means shots of groups or crowds is fine.

In real life most people break this law and no one cares, but it's good to keep in mind.

In another thread people suggested not taking pictures of people who are drunk, mentally unstable or violently angry. Good advice, but notice that buildings tend not to show any of these characteristics 😉

Brad

 

[bmattock]

Bill, you might love this poem from Martin Niemöller which is often attributed to Bert Brecht.

Sorry for the rough translation:

When the Nazis got the communists, I had been silent;
I was no communist.

When they locked up the Social Democrats, I had been silent;
I was no Social Democrat.

When they got the trade unionists, I had been silent;
I was no trade unionist.

When they got the Jews, I had been silent,
I was no Jew.

When they got me,
there was none left who could protest.

Hell, it took two world wars to get germany free, I'll do my best to keep it that way!

I know that quotation, and you're right, of course. My fear is not that some government will suddenly turn oppressive and make us all prisoners. I doubt that will happen. But I do fear the quiet corruption that begins with simple requests for information, slight injustices, but 'for our own good' and tiny restrictions on our liberties 'for our safety'. Freedom doesn't end suddenly, it slips away gradually, and the kicker is that we give it away by trying to be polite and get along and be understanding and protect ourselves.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[peterc]

It was in the months after 9/11 that some men were arrested taking photos of 'tall buildings' in some large city - not NYC,

Bill, you may be thinking of Toronto.
A Muslim man's video of the CN Tower was seized by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. When he went to Egypt, authorities arrested him and kept him in jail for two weeks as a terrorist suspect.
About a year ago hundreds of Muslims staged a protest and, armed with cameras, went to the tower to take pictures.

Peter