"My cameras don't explode"

[Andy K]

At the very worst they'll photograph the joint with an extreme telephoto while I'm away.

Same applies for corporate espionage. They're going to be a helluva lot more sophisticated than that.

Oh, and we just had our house painted this summer, so if someone stops and takes a picture, I'm flattered. 😀

Earl

This is the problem. Ordinary photographers are being harassed by paranoid people who do not know the law. In the US things are getting a lot worse since 9/11, photographers using large format cameras have been hassled and arrested for photographing bridges under clauses in the Patriot Act. It seems cops and private security guards are too dumb and paranoid to realise that if a terrorist wanted a photo of a bridge/building/road/whatever, all they have to do is buy a postcard or look on the internet. They could even use Google Earth! Also they are very unlikely to be using LF, MF, SLR or rangefinder, chances are they would use a camera phone or something else smalll and digital.

I wanted to recreate a 100 year old photo of my local railway station. I was hassled by guards and told I was not allowed to photograph because it was prohibited by law under the Prevention of Terrorism Act. I knew that was complete bullshit, but remained polite. I went home, emailed the rail company's head office and PR departments, explaining what had happened and that I was curious as to how they were dealing with tourists and rail enthusiasts who photograph on, in and around their stations thousands of times each day. I asked if it was now their company's policy to arrest tourists and rail enthusiasts. I also said I would be contacting a national newspaper to ask if they had heard of these restrictions on the railways. I got a prompt email back giving me express permission to photograph on any of their stations and trains provided I did not impede the progress of other passengers. They also said there was no policy of stopping people photographing being enforced by their company.
I printed out the email, went back to the station and made my photographs.

 

[bmattock]

Bill, you may be thinking of Toronto.
A Muslim man's video of the CN Tower was seized by the Canadian Security Intelligence Service. When he went to Egypt, authorities arrested him and kept him in jail for two weeks as a terrorist suspect.
About a year ago hundreds of Muslims staged a protest and, armed with cameras, went to the tower to take pictures.

Peter

Philadelphia:

http://policeinstitute.org/timesarticle.pdf

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[bmattock]

Philadelphia:

http://policeinstitute.org/timesarticle.pdf

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

http://citypaper.net/articles/2003-02-27/cb.shtml

 

[Krasnaya_Zvezda]

I like the way you think!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Thanks, Bill. I have to admit, I've read your postings on this subject in previous threads, and I thought about your words while I was having my encounter today.
Your previous input has given me much food for thought, and that came in handy today, I felt more prepared than in my other security encounters.
So, thanks for your help... which you didn't know you were giving at the time!

 

[ch1]

The molehill get's higher and higher.....

 

[Trius]

Andy: Great post.

OT: My dad is a real rail enthusiast, and worked for a railroad for nearly 40 years. So I have a lot of experience with rail environments, and even did an architectural series on the old Chicago & Alton yards in Bloomington, Illinois, mostly LF. I got permission ahead of time, but was the last person to document it successfully. Years later someone else went there for a similar effort. He fell through rotten floor boards to a lower level. Something such as a piece of lumber pierced a lung, and he died there. Very sobering.

Earl

 

[CleverName]

I think the problem with many Security Guards (aka rent-a-cops) is that they are enforcing "company policy" and sometimes confuse that with the law. They may think that if the company policy is "no photography" in the lobby, (which is the companys right), an untrained or overzealous security guard may think it naturally applies to somebody on the sidewalk pointing a camera at the lobby (which is NOT the companys right).

Luckily, I haven't had a bad photography related experience with authority, yet.
I've had two run-ins with security guards. One time I actually was accidenally tresspassing. (Oops, my bad.) He kindly asked me to leave and I kindly left.
Last weekend I had a Police Officer watch me as I set up my tripod in the middle of the street. (downtown Tulsa is dead Saturday mornings) I took a few shots with my TLR, carried it down a block, set it up in the middle of the street and took a few more. The officer smiled and waved as I walked past. He knew I was doing nothing more than jaywalking.

 

[bmattock]

Andy: Great post.

OT: My dad is a real rail enthusiast, and worked for a railroad for nearly 40 years. So I have a lot of experience with rail environments, and even did an architectural series on the old Chicago & Alton yards in Bloomington, Illinois, mostly LF. I got permission ahead of time, but was the last person to document it successfully. Years later someone else went there for a similar effort. He fell through rotten floor boards to a lower level. Something such as a piece of lumber pierced a lung, and he died there. Very sobering.

Earl

Earl,

This is weird. Totally OT, by the way. My Great-Grandfather was John Daniel "Jack" Mattocks, and he worked on the Chicago & Alton and lived in Gasconade County, Missouri (later moved to Peoria, Illinois). Sometime after 1910 or so, he lost a limb to a railroad accident (we don't know which one) and became a Fuller Brush salesman. All we have from that time is a newspaper article where he sued and won a settlement - $5,000 was a lot of money back then. I have his Elgin pocket watch that he gave to his son, my grandfather. Jack Mattocks was the son of an Irish immigrant who moved to Missouri by working on the railroads from NYC to Missouri.

Anyway, lotta memories, thanks! I'd love to see those photos sometime.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[Trius]

Bill: PM sent.

Earl

 

[ch1]

I am presently in the process of scanning a bunch of slides I took this past Veteren's Day - which I had off from work.

There are buildings in almost everyone of the shots. Sometimes in the background - sometimes as the "subject". At least half the pics were shot downtown within a stone's throw of Ground Zero.

No one stopped me, impeded me or bothered me in anyway that day when I took these shots.

Guess I should be glad I live in liberal NYC where individual rights are respected!

 

[anselwannab]

Krasnaya_Zvezda-

Maybe you wouldn't get hassled so much if you didn't wear your space suit while taking pictures.

I never saw what building you were photographing that was already demolished.

As to security and taking pictures. Imagine when the next bombing takes place and they check the guy's apartment and there are pictures all over the place and people remember the guy hanging out at the site. People would scream about security failures, and why something wasn't done. Not really effetive, but in the current political climate in the US its all about CYA. Security wasn't clueless about the highjackers on 9/11, they just weren't invasive enough to break up the plot. If I remember right they pulled some of their bags, searched them, didn't find anything and sent them along.

From what I've seen in the news, the terrorists would have an advance group do the recon work, while the assault team just works off their product. Probably never having met. If you can cross reference the assault team with possible recon members, you potentially can get the command cell. Or I've just read to much Tom Clancy.

Bill Mattock- How rude to flip of old Bill Clinton.

 

[bmattock]

Bill Mattock- How rude to flip of old Bill Clinton.

Hehehehe, it wasn't that President. Nor the current President. But I *was* living in Denver at the time. Working at the Denver Post, driving home (Lakewood) from downtown, when the President was departing after doing a dedication on the new Civic Center downtown. I was on Colfax in front of the Rocky Mountain News.

And I understand your statements about the 9/11 terrorists. I don't deny the problem. But one can take security to unhealthy conclusions. If we REALLY wanted to be safe, we'd station a national guardsman on every street, and implant RFID devices like those we put in pets in every citizen. I'm not saying it is going to happen tomorrow or the next day - but one thing leads to another.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[einolu]

Hey, maybe photography will become a rebel thing full of renegade artists with long hair and leather and Harleys for quick get aways. We'll all get tattoos and have prison stories and scars from run-ins with photo-gangs.

I hope so, it would be a good excuse to get a motorcycle 😎

 

[RJBender]

....I flipped off the President in front of a cop, nothing happened to me. I was five feet away from him and his face got really mean, but oh well. The Secret Service took photos of me, and the cop I was standing next to said "I don't believe you just did that." I asked him if I was under arrest, and he just told me to beat it.

LOL. Did you flip off Clinton or W? 😛

R.J.

 

[bmattock]

LOL. Did you flip off Clinton or W? 😛

R.J.

Neither one!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[RJBender]

That's what I told the security guard who approached me today, on a public street, after I took a couple of shots of the remains of a building that had been all but demolished.
When he started in ("What are you doing? Are you taking pictures?"), I said, "Yes, I'm taking photos, and whoever employs you is completely paranoid and stupid, do you know that? It is ridiculous to question people like this, let alone someone photographing a building that has only two walls left standing."
I was sure he worked at the building across the street, which says across the top "Rolex."
Then he says, "I'm just supposed to get anybody's name who is taking any pictures around here. They don't want no pictures on the internet, and no buildings gettin' blown up."
That's when I told him, "Well, my cameras don't explode."
He just kind of chuckled, and drove off in his golf cart. Surprised me there.

Was it the Rolex building in Dallas? The Swiss Consulate occupy the top floor of the building.

R.J.

 

[RJBender]

Neither one!

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

Which Prez?

R.J.

 

[bmattock]

Which Prez?

R.J.

George Sr. I never liked him, though I have always been conservative and at that time was a registered Republican (I'm now a Libertarian, even though that party has been outlawed in North Carolina). I was on my way home from work and got stopped when his motorcade came through. I got out of my truck and watched, standing next to the motorcycle cop who had stopped traffic. When GB came through, it was like an instinctive act. I just did it. He saw me, we were very close, just seperated by the glass in his limo window and maybe five feet of space. He was MOST unhappy, his smile froze on his face and he got a really mean look on.

I figure everybody needs the air let out of 'em now and again. What can I say. The debbil made me do it.

Best Regards,

Bill Mattocks

 

[RJBender]

I don't believe this is a trivial matter at all, that can be resolved by a smile and an explanation of innocence ("I'm just taking a picture, sir...")
The point is, to too many people now, someone taking a photo is automatically considered suspicious. Photography is not illegal, neither are cameras. Neither is walking down a public street. To acquiesce to questioning by some "authority" while doing any of these legal acts is in my opinion an infringement upon my rights as a citizen of this country. And if I meekly submit to their questioning, I'm merely feeding into their paranoid thinking.
The recent episode of the guy in Southlake who was arrested for "improper photography" is a great example. The guy was doing nothing wrong, and that was finally established by the DA. But the poor guy's reputation is ruined. Somebody saw a camera in that person's hand, didn't understand what he was doing with it, and his name is subsequently smeared.
I do not shoot my mouth off here and stick my neck out without having had some discussions with about this with a friend of mine, who is a detective in the Internal Affairs dept. of the Dallas Police Dept. We have had several conversations about the abuse of authority, and he has told me more than once to stand my ground when confronted by these misguided goons. You don't have to answer their questions, you don't have to give them your name--- not even to an on-duty police officer. This is not a police state--- yet. In Texas, at least, failure to identify yourself is not a crime. Doesn't mean, and my friend will be quick to point this out, that they will not try to take you down for it--- but they are in the wrong, and they are violating your rights when they do it.
Sorry to get so long winded. I'm tired of being questioned and treated as if I'm under suspicion, when I'm just taking a photo of some falling-down old bricks.
I think you have to stand up for your rights. If you don't, you'll lose them. We as photographers are being harassed for pursuing our craft. We have to fight back whenever we can.
And yes, I keep my IA friend's phone number with me all the time, just in case.

If your friend has business cards from the Dallas Police, get one and have a luggage tag made from it for your camera bag. Hey, if your bag is lost or stolen you want people to know where to turn it in, right? 😀

Does the Dallas police have an auxiliary unit, staffed with volunteers, that get IDs and badges? 😕 If so, you might want to consider that option. 😀

R.J.

 

[nwcanonman]

Bill,
I think Benjamin Franklin said it best,
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
I'll put in a little more time/money to provide myself and family personel security, but never at the sacrefice of personal freedoms.