NathanJD
Well-known
Leica have a bells and whistles digi in the M8, yes they’d probably get laughed at by everyone except those who understand if they release a SensorMP (I like that name BTW) but we’d be laughing to the bank at least.
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nome_alice
Established
4o years in the future M8's and M8.2's will be retrofitted to shoot film.
NathanJD
Well-known
usayit
Well-known
I'm still hoping for "digital film inserts" that can bring new life to older film cameras....
If that does happen... 40 years from now the M3 of the 50's just might be more usable than an M8 from '07. Now that would be ironic.
If that does happen... 40 years from now the M3 of the 50's just might be more usable than an M8 from '07. Now that would be ironic.
morgan
Well-known
Good call on the Borges reference. Having just recently discovered him, I'm really enthralled.
I'd also be in line for an MP with a sensor and sd slot. That's why I love my RD-1, despite the smaller megapixels. I leave the screen flipped around and treat it just like a film camera. It's been mistaken for one many times. I worry about it's longevity, but hey, I knew that going in with it. And I do think most modern electronics are destined for the trash heap, or better yet, recycling. As a side note, I just bought a GE Wildcat portable record player than I'm loving. It's probably ~30 years old and still going strong.
I'd also be in line for an MP with a sensor and sd slot. That's why I love my RD-1, despite the smaller megapixels. I leave the screen flipped around and treat it just like a film camera. It's been mistaken for one many times. I worry about it's longevity, but hey, I knew that going in with it. And I do think most modern electronics are destined for the trash heap, or better yet, recycling. As a side note, I just bought a GE Wildcat portable record player than I'm loving. It's probably ~30 years old and still going strong.
NathanJD
Well-known
I know that a sensor & film insert is a bit of a pipedream today but given the size of today's camera phones and point n shoots it shouldn't be out of this world to retofit a full frame sensor unit as a slightly bulbus replacement for the back flap on an M, with the actual electronics going in the film cartridge side and the battery in the take up spool side, a bit of jiggery pokery with the mechanics and an SD card that sits flat to the base plate underneath it isn't a wild flash of fantasy surely? hell i'd settle for a 3/4 CCD if it could be done!!!
Why didn't I take that microelectronics course lol.
Why didn't I take that microelectronics course lol.
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irq506
just curious
See for me it very definitely is about longevity. The quality of digital imagery is at this stage very good and pretty close to 35mm film certainly close enough for my tastes. THe problem with digital is that well it doesn't exist. Really, you need to plug in switch on and or something else to see your work. I love the knowledge that what I scan is backed up by a real solid tangible transparency or negative which I can hold up to sunlight and relive that moment.
Ten years ago I had a small but very busy photo agency in Ireland, I had a ton of work and I had people work for me. We were at the cutting edge of technology and we had the use of all of the latest gear like those Kodak/Canon DCS cameras. We had scanners film up the wazoo and sat phones etc all the stuff that is now commonplace. I
In those ten years only 60% of our output remains due to disk fatigue hard drive failure and natural disaster. That 60% incidentally was all negatives, negative which got wet and stayed in water for a period of time, I washed them and they are fine. All the digital stuff is gone.
On a personal side I lost 10,000 images from a backup disaster with a company I am still in legalities with, and my TDK Gold CDs are all un-readable stored in a fire safe...
So I now am back to film again. I dont shoot 250,000 rolls of it a year like I once did but I do shoot everything on film, and digital only jobs where I couldnt give a hoot about the images. Unfortunately some recent very nice jobs have all been shot on digital and that worries me.
As for the M8, well I am now a repair tech, and I know that the IC in those things is no better thent he IC in your dishwasher. I dont hold any hope for the M8 over time. Perhaps Leica would be better putting all of their effeorts into optics and leaving the volatile business of cameras to someone who can afford to take bigger risks then they can.
I loved my RD-1 when I had it, it rendered lovely images and I loved the manually charged shutter design feel and weight, but I didnt trust it one iota.
Its about time someone brought out a digital insert which you put intot he film chamber of your camera -someone did it about 6 or 7 years ago and at the time Lexar bought them out. I think the thing was called a prime-film anyone remember that?
Ten years ago I had a small but very busy photo agency in Ireland, I had a ton of work and I had people work for me. We were at the cutting edge of technology and we had the use of all of the latest gear like those Kodak/Canon DCS cameras. We had scanners film up the wazoo and sat phones etc all the stuff that is now commonplace. I
In those ten years only 60% of our output remains due to disk fatigue hard drive failure and natural disaster. That 60% incidentally was all negatives, negative which got wet and stayed in water for a period of time, I washed them and they are fine. All the digital stuff is gone.
On a personal side I lost 10,000 images from a backup disaster with a company I am still in legalities with, and my TDK Gold CDs are all un-readable stored in a fire safe...
So I now am back to film again. I dont shoot 250,000 rolls of it a year like I once did but I do shoot everything on film, and digital only jobs where I couldnt give a hoot about the images. Unfortunately some recent very nice jobs have all been shot on digital and that worries me.
As for the M8, well I am now a repair tech, and I know that the IC in those things is no better thent he IC in your dishwasher. I dont hold any hope for the M8 over time. Perhaps Leica would be better putting all of their effeorts into optics and leaving the volatile business of cameras to someone who can afford to take bigger risks then they can.
I loved my RD-1 when I had it, it rendered lovely images and I loved the manually charged shutter design feel and weight, but I didnt trust it one iota.
Its about time someone brought out a digital insert which you put intot he film chamber of your camera -someone did it about 6 or 7 years ago and at the time Lexar bought them out. I think the thing was called a prime-film anyone remember that?
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Speenth
Emmaiter
A good question that focuses on the very concept of 21st Century consumerism. Craftsmanship and engineering seem no longer to be valued for their own sakes. Instead, items are purchased because they have cachet, or for no better reason than they're technically advanced. Sadly, some people buy them simply because they're expensive or exclusive. When these factors no longer apply some become embarrassed to possess such old tat (however beautifully assembled it may be).
This is the Leica dilemma. Leica's reputation is built on engineering and optical excellence, but in recent years Leica has itself debased that reputation with flawed offerings (including the M8) and marketing / pricing that appeals mainly to the bling brigade. The M8 in particular, is routinely dismissed as an eccentric choice at best and a rich fool's plaything at worst. It is rarely perceived to be 'best of breed' in any respect - an important attribute if it is to become a collectible. Furthermore, its frail digital heart will most certainly have failed long before your grandchildren first get to release its wonderfully archaic shutter.
I regret there is little chance the M8 will be treasured by your grandchildren (except as a curiosity - a drowning cottage industry's last grasp at the straws of a passing age).
On the other hand, Leica lenses do not have the 'tat' factor brought on by fashion obsolescence or gizmology. For the foreseable future, the unglamorous lens will continue to be necessary to focus light on a receptor. Nobody makes better lenses than Leica. Perhaps the Leica pedigree can live on in lenses built to the highest technical and optical standards ... and for the right markets, including third-party suppliers of image capture equipment.
A lens is an unglamorous object, but a Leica lens may be admired for its technical performance and inherent 'know-how', both born of years of experience, sound science and engineering, all combined with commitment to excellence. Leica lenses will still work long after the last M8's electronic heart has fizzled out.
Some Leica lenses may be objects of desire 100 years from now. I suspect your Dad's M8 will be merely a non-functional curio your descendants swap for a song at a solar-car boot sale.
NathanJD
Well-known
Good points well made – Leica’s crown jewel is indeed made of glass
Nando
Well-known
I very much liked Leica's idea for the DMR back for the R8/R9. Personally, that's what I would like to see - a solid mechanical M-body that never needs changing with a removable digital back/module that can be upgraded over time. Of course, the M-body and digital back would have to keep roughly the same form factor as a regular M. Endustry's idea is super.
sfokevin
Established
How about a M body that would have both a Digital or Film back?...
Nando
Well-known
Even better. 
Andrew Sowerby
Well-known
Whenever people talk about giving their Leica to their child I think about that "Ozymandias" poem.
carpediem007
Member
Hi "Joe"
In the field of photography it's the one thing I've been waiting for for years... (besides photographic genius of course...
)This is what you're talking about.
I'm still hoping it'll come... one day...
Cheers,
Michael
PS: Info is spread over a number of posts...
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biggambi
Vivere!
The core to the question being raised regarding longevity is that of mechanical, solid state, and the combination of the two. If you look at how the items fail over time, it would seem that the answer becomes clear. Mechanical items with tight tolerances become less accurate as they wear over time. This can be somewhat imperceptible to the user, and requires regular re-lubrication, re-calibration, and replacement of worn parts. The sustainability is very high, but there is an undeniable cycle regarding accuracy. The advantages of solid state is that if it does not fail in its infancy, it should run with the same level of accuracy until the end of its life. The problem is that modern electrical designed circuit boards are not sustainable like a mechanical device. Once it fails, you need to replace it. (Yes, it may be possible to repair it. But, it is extremely impractical.) Also, mechanical devices sometimes have the ability to continue being usable after sustaining damage. Circuit boards, and their components do not share this resilience.
I personally would echo the sentiments of many who have posted. That I would love to see an MP with a digital back. I can replace the back when sensor technology improves, or should it fail. I don't want an lcd screen or any other bells and whistles. I didn't need to review my shots in the field with film, and I don't need to do it with digital. This model would optimize battery life, optimize mechanical benefits, and give me digital images. I want longevity, durability, obscurity, and control in a digital format. Most importantly, I want my Leica lenses, mounted on a Lecia body. This does not need to be a replacement to the M8.x, but rather an alternative. Much like the MP vs the M7. I would take one added change, the ability to write to two SD cards simultaneously. Should one card fail, the images would still be intact. Just my thoughts...
I personally would echo the sentiments of many who have posted. That I would love to see an MP with a digital back. I can replace the back when sensor technology improves, or should it fail. I don't want an lcd screen or any other bells and whistles. I didn't need to review my shots in the field with film, and I don't need to do it with digital. This model would optimize battery life, optimize mechanical benefits, and give me digital images. I want longevity, durability, obscurity, and control in a digital format. Most importantly, I want my Leica lenses, mounted on a Lecia body. This does not need to be a replacement to the M8.x, but rather an alternative. Much like the MP vs the M7. I would take one added change, the ability to write to two SD cards simultaneously. Should one card fail, the images would still be intact. Just my thoughts...
KoNickon
Nick Merritt
The basic problems come down to two, as I see it: The technology of digital cameras, including data storage, continues to evolve, so even if your M8 is working in 2050 there'll be no equipment left that can read the file (unless somehow you've kept a computer and card reader from 2008 still working). With film, as long as you can still get it, and develop and print it (and that's the big unknown), you're still in business.
The second problem is that electronic components are not meant to be repaired, but replaced. So unlike the repair of mechanical devices, there's never been a culture of fixing circuit boards and other electronic parts. I'm not saying it can't be done; however, keeping any electronic device going over decades would require a whole new cadre of artisans who do these types of repairs. Look around -- there used to be a lot more shops that would fix TVs, radios, and audio components than there are now. The mindset (handed down from the previous generation) was to fix rather than throw away and replace. Electronic devices have come down in price enough that nobody thinks twice about pitching them out. And, most significantly for Leica, manufacturers don't make electronics to last either. So Leica would most definitely be swimming against the tide to create such a camera. Maybe we RFF nuts care about having an "heirloom" camera, but the rest of the world doesn't.
The second problem is that electronic components are not meant to be repaired, but replaced. So unlike the repair of mechanical devices, there's never been a culture of fixing circuit boards and other electronic parts. I'm not saying it can't be done; however, keeping any electronic device going over decades would require a whole new cadre of artisans who do these types of repairs. Look around -- there used to be a lot more shops that would fix TVs, radios, and audio components than there are now. The mindset (handed down from the previous generation) was to fix rather than throw away and replace. Electronic devices have come down in price enough that nobody thinks twice about pitching them out. And, most significantly for Leica, manufacturers don't make electronics to last either. So Leica would most definitely be swimming against the tide to create such a camera. Maybe we RFF nuts care about having an "heirloom" camera, but the rest of the world doesn't.
RIVI1969
Established
I am sorry Nathan, but technically that shot is far from fabulous, it looks like my old Digilux 2 iso 400 raw shots but without the punchy colors...
irq506
just curious
Hi "Joe"
In the field of photography it's the one thing I've been waiting for for years... (besides photographic genius of course...
This is what you're talking about.
I'm still hoping it'll come... one day...
Cheers,
Michael
PS: Info is spread over a number of posts...
Bingo! Thats it thats the one! man its been a while since Ive seen this. i actually offered them some support money at the time because I so badly wanted that product to fly. But some mofo didnt want that product to impact sales of their own crap and so stomped it out. Id Love to know if those guys are still around and if that tech isnt totally buried and sealed in some mountain somewhere near area 51.
Anyway, thats what Id like to see and thats what Id love to have in my M. Even a 2mp would be fine for me, because like I said, its all about longevity for me, and regardless of what digital quality is out there film is still and will always be king because it come right down the line to the end result as a tangible physical entity.
And thats all there is to it.
NathanJD
Well-known
Please don't apologise to me - it's not my picture just my opinion and we're both entitled to one even if they differ. I won't take offence, technicality is not paramount in my taste in art
Tuolumne
Veteran
Given the progress with digital camera technology, the day will come when you can build a digital insert for a film camera. Whether there is a real market for that once it comes remains to be seen. This will probably be the biggest obstacle to producing more than one.
In the mean time, we need to come to grips with the fact that a digital camera is a computer with a lens on the front. You would no more wish to give the computer on your desk to your grandson than he would want it. Get over it.
If you want an heirloom, buy and use a film camera and give that to your grandson, assuming he wants it and knows what to do with it.
/T
In the mean time, we need to come to grips with the fact that a digital camera is a computer with a lens on the front. You would no more wish to give the computer on your desk to your grandson than he would want it. Get over it.
If you want an heirloom, buy and use a film camera and give that to your grandson, assuming he wants it and knows what to do with it.
/T