My first RF. need your opinions.

[wgerrard]

Multi, not to throw a wrench into this, but have you had a chance to actually hold and use a Bessa or a Leica? I own a Bessa and, until last week, an M3 for a short time. I find the Bessa more comfortable to carry and use. Not that the M3 was uncomfortable. But, if someone ran a blind test on me, and I didn't know which camera was which, I'd pick the Bessa as the one that fits my hands better.

 

[burninfilm]

You should easily be able to accomodate a Leica M-mount body and a good 35 or 50mm lens for around $1200-$1500. Patience helps, too. I have picked up a user-condition M3, 50mm Summicron, and 90mm Summicron, and the total investment will be less than $800.

The quicker you want it, the more you'll pay for it. Just be sure to watch the classifieds sections at this site. In the past few weeks, several great deals have been posted for sale: a fully functional $900 M6 "Classic", several $800 M4s, a recently CLA'd $650 M4-P, etc. There have also been many good deals on lenses. Heck, there's a really nice 50mm f2.8 M-mount Elmar for sale for $325. If you can work with the f2.8 max aperture, that'd be a great lens option, and it's being sold by a reliable, well reputed seller.

 

[coelacanth]

What burninfilm said. I have no personal connection with the seller, but that Elmar 50/2.8 is a fantastic lens. And with a rangefinder like Ms, you can shoot 1/4 sec speed with pretty decent results. That's quite difficult with DSLRs because of mirror shock. (sure, those anti-shaky thing is one thing, but still) So don't be afraid of F2.8. 😉

 

[multivitamins]

As Ken said, well maintained M3 is such a joy to use. My 53 years young M3 is as smooth and silky as you can ever expect from any device. 😉

Just be sure to get one with recent CLA or add $80+shipping for Youxin's CLA, then you have a beautiful picture taking machine.

Do you have a link to the M3 you found?

I found it at KEH.com. As much as possible I want to purchase my first RF here in RF Forum. Members are too nice and can be trusted. Unlike Ebay, I was cheated for about 3x. Luckly what I bougth were not expensive.

Workflow is subjective, but I find I use my unmetered cameras less than my M6. Little extra steps add up, whether it's an external view finder or an external meter. And, for me at least, film loading with the M6 'tulip' is easier/quicker than an M3. Can't really go wrong with any of these options, and I don't know what your shooting style is so I'll shut up now...

I do mostly portraits using my dslr and got into wedding and photojournalism. Now Im gettin tired using an SLR and wanted to explore RF and have fun. What I use now is a cheap Konica C35 that has a zone focus mech. Sharp lil cam. But recently the metering died and Im really having a hard time using it.

I really prefer the M6 over the M3. but as long as the M3 has a good and accurate external meter I think Its ok for me.

Multi, not to throw a wrench into this, but have you had a chance to actually hold and use a Bessa or a Leica? I own a Bessa and, until last week, an M3 for a short time. I find the Bessa more comfortable to carry and use. Not that the M3 was uncomfortable. But, if someone ran a blind test on me, and I didn't know which camera was which, I'd pick the Bessa as the one that fits my hands better.

No chance here in our country to try a bessa or leica. They don't sell it here. Stores here mostly sell DSLR and point & shoot.
Second-hand shops sell zorki, but I don't really like the zorki in my hands.

What made me decide to choose M6 over Bessa? My favorite wedding photographer uses M6. But Bessa would be my next alternative if my funds does not permit me to buy an M6.

You should easily be able to accomodate a Leica M-mount body and a good 35 or 50mm lens for around $1200-$1500. Patience helps, too. I have picked up a user-condition M3, 50mm Summicron, and 90mm Summicron, and the total investment will be less than $800.

The quicker you want it, the more you'll pay for it. Just be sure to watch the classifieds sections at this site. In the past few weeks, several great deals have been posted for sale: a fully functional $900 M6 "Classic", several $800 M4s, a recently CLA'd $650 M4-P, etc. There have also been many good deals on lenses. Heck, there's a really nice 50mm f2.8 M-mount Elmar for sale for $325. If you can work with the f2.8 max aperture, that'd be a great lens option, and it's being sold by a reliable, well reputed seller.

Woh! Good deal indeed! M3+50+90 for $800?! Such a nice deal. I really like to get a fast lens like 1.2 to 2. I'll be using it to practice for wedding shots. I'll check out the reviews of this lens and see if I like the bokeh. I mostly select my fast lenses based on the bokeh that the lens can produce.

Do you have any experience with this lens in low light?

What burninfilm said. I have no personal connection with the seller, but that Elmar 50/2.8 is a fantastic lens. And with a rangefinder like Ms, you can shoot 1/4 sec speed with pretty decent results. That's quite difficult with DSLRs because of mirror shock. (sure, those anti-shaky thing is one thing, but still) So don't be afraid of F2.8. 😉

Yeah. at 2.8, dslr needs to have atleast iso 800-1600 to get decent shots (sharp) in low light - which most likely will produce evil noise unless your dslr has good high ISO results.

I'll check the review of Elmar 50/2.8. Looks like a great deal. Do you have any experience with this lens in low light?

Thanks.

I

 

[David Hughes]

M2 + lens of your choice and enough cash left for a CLA if needed 🙂

I'll second that. The line up of 35 - 50 -90 is great and leaving out the 50 gives a good two lens kit. M2's should be CLA'd - usually (just to be safe) unless you know the history and see the receipts for the last service.

I always think the meter should match the camera; you can get Westons of the right vintage for a pound or two and, again, a CLA for a Weston will work wonders. Once on the slippery slope you'll be looking for an elderly screw thread model and the old Westons have the right speeds and apertures on the dials for anything.

Regards, David

 

[januaryman]

Now that you have an M3, all you need is a lens or lenses -- and a meter which gives both incident and reflected readings. With the M3 you cannot use a 35mm (or wider) lens without an external finder.

I agree that once you have an M3 you "need" lenses, but you do not "need" a meter. I often travel about without one, using Sunny 16.

Not to say that I never use one, that is! 😉

 

[Benjamin]

Buy a Leica M4-P, a Voigtlander VCII (hot shoe mounted) meter or a Sekonic L308s.

With regard to lenses there are too many possibly valid options to list.

The Voigtlander lenses are fantastic optically though the lens bodies are where the money is saved. The 35mm f/2.5 PII Color Skopar in particular is of superb pedigree.

Zeiss ZM glass is also excellent, supposedly very modern looking with high contrast and good flare control. The 50mm f/1.5 C Sonnar is the black sheep here, more of an antiquated look but with a modern coating. Probably not the best first lens, but a beautiful bit of kit. The 50mm f/2 Planar or 35mm f/2.8 would probably be a good choice.

Leica M lenses you have a lot of options. Summicrons may be slightly out of budget, though the 50mm f/2 DR and Rigid Summicron's are affordable, but old. Be aware of soft coatings and that a lot of older M mount (and indeed LTM) lenses only focus to 1m; your M6 or M4-P for example can couple to .7m.

Hope some of this ramble helps. Good luck.

 

[multivitamins]

Buy a Leica M4-P, a Voigtlander VCII (hot shoe mounted) meter or a Sekonic L308s.

With regard to lenses there are too many possibly valid options to list.

The Voigtlander lenses are fantastic optically though the lens bodies are where the money is saved. The 35mm f/2.5 PII Color Skopar in particular is of superb pedigree.

Zeiss ZM glass is also excellent, supposedly very modern looking with high contrast and good flare control. The 50mm f/1.5 C Sonnar is the black sheep here, more of an antiquated look but with a modern coating. Probably not the best first lens, but a beautiful bit of kit. The 50mm f/2 Planar or 35mm f/2.8 would probably be a good choice.

Leica M lenses you have a lot of options. Summicrons may be slightly out of budget, though the 50mm f/2 DR and Rigid Summicron's are affordable, but old. Be aware of soft coatings and that a lot of older M mount (and indeed LTM) lenses only focus to 1m; your M6 or M4-P for example can couple to .7m.

Hope some of this ramble helps. Good luck.

Thanks ben. I think I'll be getting the M6. Hopefully by the end of october or november. I need to watch the classifieds. As for the lens, voigt is good to me. I think they make good lenses. Been thinking of getting the Elmar 50/2 listed on the classifieds. Is it good? Its only $325.

Thanks.

 

[coelacanth]

OK, Elmar 50mm/2.8 first version is by no mean "modern" looking lens. Lower contrast, not so fast, not crazy sharp. But if you like the characteristics, it's a superb lens. I love the "3D" look that's not really by shallow DOF.

I got mine from KEH BGN grade (really was EX+ in evilbay standard) for $299 + US shipping without caps. I believe the seller here is selling with Leica metal front cap and generic rear cap in excellent condition. If the shipping cost can be managed well to your destination, I think it's a quite good deal.

Here are some sample shots. Both shots are HP5 at rated speed.

Probably shutter speed 1/10 sec. (M3)

1/60 (M4)

 

[Benjamin]

Thanks ben.



Been thinking of getting the Elmar 50/2 listed on the classifieds. Is it good? Its only $325.

Thanks.

The old Elmar and the newer Elmar-M, f/2.8 are both excellent lenses. If it has been looked after, you probably can't go wrong.

I still want one!

 

[multivitamins]

OK, Elmar 50mm/2.8 first version is by no mean "modern" looking lens. Lower contrast, not so fast, not crazy sharp. But if you like the characteristics, it's a superb lens. I love the "3D" look that's not really by shallow DOF.

I got mine from KEH BGN grade (really was EX+ in evilbay standard) for $299 + US shipping without caps. I believe the seller here is selling with Leica metal front cap and generic rear cap in excellent condition. If the shipping cost can be managed well to your destination, I think it's a quite good deal.

Here are some sample shots. Both shots are HP5 at rated speed.

Probably shutter speed 1/10 sec. (M3)

1/60 (M4)

Wow. I like the cat shot. Pretty nice stuff. Thanks for sharing. Now im thinkin of getting it.

The old Elmar and the newer Elmar-M, f/2.8 are both excellent lenses. If it has been looked after, you probably can't go wrong.

I still want one!

Thanks benj. i like the lens now. The lens is exc as proved by the shots posted above.

 

[watchyourbackgrounds]

I'm as pro-no-meter as most of the next guys, and I appreciate the silky tankness of the M3, but this I can't imagine a better camera for a sincere RF beginner (or even vet) than a modern Bessa. R2, R3, R4----M or A--doesn't matter. If these cameras didn't exist, they'd be the ones we'd be pining for. Solid construction, M-'patibility, features the M3 designer would have signed off on in a second had the technology existed at the time.....and cheap as bones (relatively speaking). There isn't a RF enthusiast on the planet who has only one camera, and you (multivitamin) won't be the first.
As for lenses...go with whatever, but I think anybody will find that modern Japanese lenses compare favorably-PLUS with the older German ones, and cost less. The Leica lure will always be there, Leicas will always be there, but for a starter kind (drumroll): Any modern Bessa, and a wide and normal Voigt lens, maybe even the 28/3.5 or 35/2.5 screwmounts with M-dapter (super cheap, super deals), and then a 50-something. I'd go with the LTM 50/2.5 again--it's under $300.
Anyway, just get into it. Don't turn into a Leica handwringer neo-connoisseur at this stage of the game. Get a Bessa, get shooting!

 

[multivitamins]

I'm as pro-no-meter as most of the next guys, and I appreciate the silky tankness of the M3, but this I can't imagine a better camera for a sincere RF beginner (or even vet) than a modern Bessa. R2, R3, R4----M or A--doesn't matter. If these cameras didn't exist, they'd be the ones we'd be pining for. Solid construction, M-'patibility, features the M3 designer would have signed off on in a second had the technology existed at the time.....and cheap as bones (relatively speaking). There isn't a RF enthusiast on the planet who has only one camera, and you (multivitamin) won't be the first.
As for lenses...go with whatever, but I think anybody will find that modern Japanese lenses compare favorably-PLUS with the older German ones, and cost less. The Leica lure will always be there, Leicas will always be there, but for a starter kind (drumroll): Any modern Bessa, and a wide and normal Voigt lens, maybe even the 28/3.5 or 35/2.5 screwmounts with M-dapter (super cheap, super deals), and then a 50-something. I'd go with the LTM 50/2.5 again--it's under $300.
Anyway, just get into it. Don't turn into a Leica handwringer neo-connoisseur at this stage of the game. Get a Bessa, get shooting!

Hi. tnx for the advice. Yeah, maybe its only me wanting the leica since its one of the best in RF. But I thought about getting a bessa first and then upgrade to leica after a year with bessa or when I have enough knowledge in RF. Ryt now I ordered a Kiev 4 in contax mount just to have a taste of what RF is like. I got it really cheap though with 2 lenses and a meter included.

lets see what October 30th will bring to me from the classifieds. I really like the LTM 50/2.5......

 

[multivitamins]

I'm as pro-no-meter as most of the next guys, and I appreciate the silky tankness of the M3, but this I can't imagine a better camera for a sincere RF beginner (or even vet) than a modern Bessa. R2, R3, R4----M or A--doesn't matter. If these cameras didn't exist, they'd be the ones we'd be pining for. Solid construction, M-'patibility, features the M3 designer would have signed off on in a second had the technology existed at the time.....and cheap as bones (relatively speaking). There isn't a RF enthusiast on the planet who has only one camera, and you (multivitamin) won't be the first.
As for lenses...go with whatever, but I think anybody will find that modern Japanese lenses compare favorably-PLUS with the older German ones, and cost less. The Leica lure will always be there, Leicas will always be there, but for a starter kind (drumroll): Any modern Bessa, and a wide and normal Voigt lens, maybe even the 28/3.5 or 35/2.5 screwmounts with M-dapter (super cheap, super deals), and then a 50-something. I'd go with the LTM 50/2.5 again--it's under $300.
Anyway, just get into it. Don't turn into a Leica handwringer neo-connoisseur at this stage of the game. Get a Bessa, get shooting!

Hi. tnx for the advice. Yeah, maybe its only me wanting the leica since its one of the best in RF. But I thought about getting a bessa first and then upgrade to leica after a year with bessa or when I have enough knowledge in RF. Ryt now I ordered a Kiev 4 in contax mount just to have a taste of what RF is like. I got it really cheap though with 2 lenses and a meter included.

lets see what October 30th will bring to me from the classifieds. I really like the LTM 50/2.5......

 

[maddoc]

I would always invest as much in the lens(es) and get a cheaper camera-body instead.... A Leica M4-2 / M4-P is as cheap and good as it gets and an external meter is cheaper (and easier to repair or exchange) than the internal electronics of a M6 / M6TTL.

M2/M3/M4 are nice cameras (I had multiple of them ...) but usually more worn, need the one or other part serviced and that's expensive.

A used 35mm Summicron would be great to start with but if you don't need the f/2.0, a nice 35/2.8 Summaron (m-mount and without the googles) is a good lens, too.

 

[shadowfox]

Guys. I did not buy the M3 yet. Still deciding. I really like the M6. but the M3 is also good with ext. meter on it.

Make sure that you can live without framelines for wider angle if you get an M3, and loading is not as easy/fast as M4-P or M6.

As for meter, unless you mainly shoot slide films, some readings on Sunny-16 and a few rolls to practice will make you less dependent on meters. I personally think it is more satisfying to produce good photos without a meter.

A good M4-P is a couple hundred dollars less than a good M6. Use the money to get a better lens, or to buy film.

 

[Merkin]

I would also recommend a Bessa, especially since you said you felt a bit lost when the meter in your Konica went out. They can be had brand new for the cost of a 30 to 50 year old Leica, they have a meter, they can use all of the same lenses, and you can choose your model based on the shooting you do, i.e. more wide angle, more normal, or more tele. You also have the choice of a fully manual version or an aperture priority/fully manual version. Any used Leica is a bit of an unknown quantity- sometimes examples that look fantastic on the outside have serious internal issues, and sometimes leicas that look like they have been run over by a truck work flawlessly. With a brand new bessa, you know it will work, and if it doesn't for some reason, it has a warranty. Also, since you do portraiture and some photojournalism work, you might find yourself in a position where you need or want to use a flash, and the bessas have a 1/125 sync speed compared to the leica's 1/50th sync speed. Also, since you are in Asia, you can probably have one shipped to you from HK or tokyo (or europe, depending on your location in asia) cheaper than you could have something shipped from the states.

As to your favorite wedding photographer using an M6, the question you should be asking yourself is which lens and which film he or she uses- that will make a much bigger difference.

 

[thomasw_]

As others have suggested, get the M2 or M4-P as your first Leica. The M4-P is more costly than a M2, but it has all 6 of the modern framelines, 28-90, 35-135, 50-75. The M2 has the classic style and the simplest, non-distracting framelines that come up alone as 35 50 90. An old M2 or M4-P will do most everything you seem to desire; the M3 is useless for 35s which makes it rather lame for a one camera kit unless you only shoot 50s and longer. Don't fret about the differences in film loading or build quality; these are non sequitur topics.

Use the M-mount group to help you find the best lens for your vision.

FWIW, I'd spend less on an old M2 and meter, and more on the lens.

 

[coelacanth]

I second what Thomas said about choosing M2 for lower body price = more budget on lens.

And I think you'll like simple 35/50/90 framelines. (and you can use whole VF as 28mm).

 

[multivitamins]

I would always invest as much in the lens(es) and get a cheaper camera-body instead.... A Leica M4-2 / M4-P is as cheap and good as it gets and an external meter is cheaper (and easier to repair or exchange) than the internal electronics of a M6 / M6TTL.

M2/M3/M4 are nice cameras (I had multiple of them ...) but usually more worn, need the one or other part serviced and that's expensive.

A used 35mm Summicron would be great to start with but if you don't need the f/2.0, a nice 35/2.8 Summaron (m-mount and without the googles) is a good lens, too.

I really need to have a fast lens for weddings. I think f2 would be great for me. I've seen many m4-p on the used market lately - $600 -$700 etc... and looks good to me. Im just concerned with the metering. I don't have any idea if its hard to use an external metering device.

Make sure that you can live without framelines for wider angle if you get an M3, and loading is not as easy/fast as M4-P or M6.

As for meter, unless you mainly shoot slide films, some readings on Sunny-16 and a few rolls to practice will make you less dependent on meters. I personally think it is more satisfying to produce good photos without a meter.

A good M4-P is a couple hundred dollars less than a good M6. Use the money to get a better lens, or to buy film.

If you don't mind me asking a noob question - whats sunny 16?

Any way, I already have lots of rolls here waiting to be burned by my future RF.

Is M6 that good as compared to M4-P?

I would also recommend a Bessa, especially since you said you felt a bit lost when the meter in your Konica went out. They can be had brand new for the cost of a 30 to 50 year old Leica, they have a meter, they can use all of the same lenses, and you can choose your model based on the shooting you do, i.e. more wide angle, more normal, or more tele. You also have the choice of a fully manual version or an aperture priority/fully manual version. Any used Leica is a bit of an unknown quantity- sometimes examples that look fantastic on the outside have serious internal issues, and sometimes leicas that look like they have been run over by a truck work flawlessly. With a brand new bessa, you know it will work, and if it doesn't for some reason, it has a warranty. Also, since you do portraiture and some photojournalism work, you might find yourself in a position where you need or want to use a flash, and the bessas have a 1/125 sync speed compared to the leica's 1/50th sync speed. Also, since you are in Asia, you can probably have one shipped to you from HK or tokyo (or europe, depending on your location in asia) cheaper than you could have something shipped from the states.

As to your favorite wedding photographer using an M6, the question you should be asking yourself is which lens and which film he or she uses- that will make a much bigger difference.

About the bessa. I saw one in the classifieds selling a bessa R. Is it good? Im thinking of getting it and buy some good lenses instead of getting an R3A /M which i can save almost $300. Well, bout the flash, its not yet part of my plan since ive heard that RF is really good in low light.

Ryt now, Im still waiting and observing the classifieds.

About my favorite photographer. HIs using 4x M6TTL with high-end leica lenses not to mention the famous noctx 1:1. He uses Tri-X and some colord 65 films.

Well, I can't afford what he have unless LEICA would sponsor me which is definitely impossible.

As others have suggested, get the M2 or M4-P as your first Leica. The M4-P is more costly than a M2, but it has all 6 of the modern framelines, 28-90, 35-135, 50-75. The M2 has the classic style and the simplest, non-distracting framelines that come up alone as 35 50 90. An old M2 or M4-P will do most everything you seem to desire; the M3 is useless for 35s which makes it rather lame for a one camera kit unless you only shoot 50s and longer. Don't fret about the differences in film loading or build quality; these are non sequitur topics.

Use the M-mount group to help you find the best lens for your vision.

FWIW, I'd spend less on an old M2 and meter, and more on the lens.

What would be the good meter device to pair with the M2? Is it not hard to use an external metering device?