My theory on the SLOW death of digital

Why don't you process your own E6. Its not difficult , Honest!!! I started processing color slides in the 60's with Ferraniacolor, 13 stages and temperatures had to be kept with 1/4 degree. The reversal done with the film in a bowl of water, holding a bare bulb in a socket over it. you stood a good chance of electrcuting yourself if your hands were wet, or dropped the bulb in the water!!! Now - three steps - done in about 30mins. I use a Tetenal Kit but there are many others. If you have ever processed B/W film, its no more difficult. There is huge satisfaction seeing the strip of color slides hanging up to dry.
 
i'm getting ready to do my own E6. Biggest roadblock is temperature control. Do you have any ideas short of a Jobo processor?
 
I use as plastic flower trough bought from a garden centre. This water bath is kept to temperature by sitting on an old hostess heated serving tray I bought at a car boot sale! In this I have the three 500ml bottles and the Jobo or Paterson Tank which holds one 35mm film
 
Thanks for the good idea John. I'm going to rig up something similar and try it. Normally, I use a lab in Minneapolis which does a good job. Planning for the future when it might not be as easy.
 
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Fedzilla_Bob said:
E6 remains big here in the San Diego Area. We have 3 labs that will process it, one just down the road. They charge $7 US for 36 exposures, I'm not sure how that compares price wise.

Price wise, it's about the same here. Most pro-labs send it out, and turnaround is about 1 week. Mailers are almost 1 month turnaround. There's a few places in downtown Toronto that'll do it in 1hr, but I live in the 'burbs. There was a lab uptown that did 1hr e6, but the _entire_ chain almost choked 1 year ago, and the e6 lab is gone.

As for DIY, I've thought about it. The local photographic supplies store does have AGFA's home dev E6 kit, and doesn't require the "bare lightbulb" method. The cost is about CDN$6- per roll, about 1/2 the cost of a lab, but it's the water temp issue that I have to work on, some have suggested an aquarium water heater which should be easier to regulate. For me, the DSLR is just alot easier, and I don't have to dust-spot for 1/2 hr.
 
The digital prints made by Epson and HP on the better papers are already archival, that is they'll last as long as reasonably-well-fixed/washed film. So if you're anxious about the future and don't like digital memory (tape lasts incredibly long if good quality) make prints and store them well.

IMO we'll see physically larger sensors that will make give new life to current SLR (and Leica I hope!) lenses. Remember that 35mm is really not 2X3 but is 2X3X4 (two motion picture frames) and you'll see why I think the Olympus 4/3 might reasonably be quadrupled with existing technology and film to 4X4/3, ie 32MP or 20MP, depending on which chip Oly uses.
 
djon said:
The digital prints made by Epson and HP on the better papers are already archival, that is they'll last as long as reasonably-well-fixed/washed film. So if you're anxious about the future and don't like digital memory (tape lasts incredibly long if good quality) make prints and store them well.

I need to think about this new storage paradigm.

I like it...... let's see how it works .... what size print should I make from my Kodachrome slide? 4x6, 5x7, 8x10, 11x14, 16x20, or maybe 20x30? That's going to be expensive for the big ones, and the little ones. And I can't ever project them? Hmmm... I think the new slide will be just fine stored with the 50 year old slides in the sleeve next to it.

Someone said it before me......Digital storage........ an oxymoron. 🙂

And now, back to the original question, yes digital will replace film. Film is "overkill" for the new and next generations of consumers. Too bad.
 
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djon said:
Note to Rip Van Winkle...the "bare light bulb" went out almost forty years ago, when E3 was replaced with E4 !


Yep, "flashing" film went out not long after I hit puberty -- and I'm 60!

Ektachrome processing isn't that difficult. In the military, back in the '70s, we would sometimes develop 8 rolls of 35mm in a four-roll tank (E4) by winding two rolls back-to-back on ss reels (emulsion sides out). You would think it would have overtaxed the solution but we obtained very good results (although I suspect the color did suffer somewhat.
 
How does Michael's article on the current proprietization issues surrounding RAW image files support your theory of digital imaging's demise?
 
digital stability

digital stability

well, the short lifetime of media is only an issue if we assume pics will be stored on CDs or DVDs forever. Other means of storage will come along. Compact flash and hard drives are very stable.

I know I'd feel safer with a DVD of high resolution scans of my most prized shots than I would with a number of negatives or slides which are delicate in the face of heat and moisture. I can make countless copies of a DVD. I just finished ripping my entire music collection (CDs) into high quality MP3 almost half a terabyte. I did it because my CDs are gathering scratches. I suspect people will back up their photos just like they do with other important files. I keep my digital copies in three media types. CD, DVD, and on the hard drives (2). I keep the DVDs locked away. I use one hard drive for building up folders, then I copy them to the other hard drive to minimize disk activity on a regular basis for the master folder. I am very thorough.

I think that in the end, film will be around, but mostly as a hobbyist thing. Only the very dedicated will use it. It will be expensive because many film producers will have phased it out of their product lines. A handful of companies will keep it around because of the dedicated market. Digital will be there as a safety bank for backing up film images. Scanners will be good enough to scan files from film with higher dynamic range than any printer or method can capture. Artists will shoot with film and store digitally, though they may do some printing in wet darkrooms on their own. Printers will give up using ink, and instead use light on photosensitive paper.

Who knows of course. I really can't see digital ever dying out. It will definitely get to the point that it surpasses film in all respects at some point. I say that because science works for industry. There is no real market for developing major new sciences in film technology. Constant improvement of the digital photography market, if kept at a safe pace, will drive consumption as the computer industry does with its never ending race. Of course, if it moves too fast, people will give up and the market will slow down until it meets up with demand again.

CCDs will grow in resolution, range, etc. Already full frame digitals shoot higher resolutino images than 35 mm film. There are giga pixel cameras out there. Multiple gigapixels.

Already, film purists are a special group. That they are a group is evidence of the trend.

But the old way will always have a following.
 
This is Kodak Gold 400 from 1988, out of the famous shoebox for the first time after it came from the lab. In the print there are colors!

aav.sized.jpg


If you want realy long lived negs, silverhalide B/W is your only option, and better develop it yourself so you get it properly fixed and washed 🙂
 
Digital images consists of just 1 and 0 (lots of them). Without at proper way to it, the image is just a collection of randomly ordered 1's and 0's. If one loose the algorithm to decode it, it is almost impossible to decode it again. A negative/positive is a "optical" storage medium, that is everyone can see what is depicted. Scientist are beginning to experiment with optical mediums to use on extremely long storage (millions of years). A picture, text or other is "burned" on to that medium (some strange alloy or something). Their conclusion is that what we can se with our bare eyes is better to store than something one needs a machine to decode.

Sivert.
 
PS: I think Stasi (the secret police in east-Berlin under the cold war) lost all their gathered data on possible western spies when they executed their systems administrator (or perhaps he defected, don't remeber exactly). Only he was able to retrieve the data, that is HE was the algorithm to retreive data from a string of 1's and 0's. All that material is useless even today =)

Sivert
 
Siverta, actualy the USA got lots of the Stasi tapes and deciphered them. Just recently some of the results where made available to german authorities, much to the grief of up to now unknown Stasi spies 🙂

And to the storage media. The library of alexandria was destroyed and the pyramids don't make much sense to us.
So realy longterm storage may be unachievable after all.
 
I have recently "resurrected" an old DCS200 that uses a raw format that is unreadable by everything except its TWAIN-16 driver. And that software is a pain to use once the raw images are transferred to the computers disk. Writing software to read in the raw image format and convert it to a .bmp file is not hard. Looking at the HEX dump, it is obvious where the thumbnail image and full image begin. The extra data is stored in ASCII. Yes, it is easier to do with documentation, but not "too" bad without it. Data compression makes things harder, but only a few algorithms are typically used. So if someone wanted to make a concerted effort to read the image, it is do-able. On the DCS200, The image is uncompressed and UNENCRYPTED (unlike what NIKON has started to do).
 
A very long thread, in every sense.

Many years ago I had an article published in a local photographic journal, ostensibly as a rebuttal against an earlier article, but in essense, examining the nature of the medium called photography. Several of the issues it raised have been mentioned by my fellow correspondents already, but a very important one still remained unexplored. To put it in one sentence:

The mainstream practice of digital photography is actively destroying the collective visual memory of the presence at the expense of the future.

For instance, get out your negative files, and look at the negatives taken perhaps decades ago, rolls and rolls of them. Look at them closely and you would realise that what you have printed consist of but a small fraction of them. Those "dormant" images locked in the other unprinted negatives might not have been deemed "important" or "significant" enough to warrant the expense of printing, but as time progressed, they might reveal things which can indeed be seen as important. Perhaps a building which just happened to be in the background no longer exists, perhaps a person off to one side is no longer with us, perhaps the picture is too banal to be seen as worth the cost of a sheet of paper.

But they are still there, in a form that can be retrieved easily.

At the archives of, say, newspapers or news magazines, you can still go through the contact prints taken by the photographers back them, and by examining the "dormant" negatives, you hold the key to understanding how the events happened leading to the genesis of the photograph printed on the page, and also how the photographer worked towards achieving it.

In your family album there are many pictures which were not considered "good enough" to be enlarged or shared, but they still documented life in the raw.

These are the images, the raw materials, each of them add a piece of the jigsaw puzzle which become the visual memory, and the material for future historians.

What actually happened to these "dormant" images if we all shoot on digital? One click of the button, gone; because they're not "good enough", not "important" or "significant" enough for the here and now.

Having been a photographer, photojournalist and photographic historian for quite some time, I can very well see the anguish and frustration of historians say a century or two in the future; the dearth of raw materials will indeed make it hard for them, and the surviving images, the "unadulterated", "uncensored" images would be even rarer; our descendents' visual memory of the early 21st century (and beyond) will indeed be suffering from tunnel-vision: the vision of the minority of photographers who used film.
 
The attached slide was taken by me in Ghent in 1963, on Kodachrome X with a Kodak Instamatic 100 camera using 126 film. I still have some slides I took in 1955 on Original Kodachrome 25 ASA with my fathers Ilford Advocate camera, showing the last days of the trams in Dundee, I must get around to scanning them. They have been stored in a dry cupboard in ordinary Kodak yellow slide boxes.
 
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