ray*j*gun
Veteran
Ok so I have this really nice Agfa 6x6 with a an Agfa Apotar lens (4,5 85 B thru 300) that is in beautiful condition but when I took it out of the cabinet to exercise it the shutter stuck. I'm sure all it needs is a good lube but i have never taken a folder apart. Its a scale focus body so the little Ahgfa has a low market value so I would be willing to take a shot at doing the work but need some help/instructions. I stupidly tried the self timer which I am sure made the whole thing worse.
Help would be appreciated!!
Thanks
Help would be appreciated!!
Thanks
Last edited:
02Pilot
Malcontent
Prontor shutter, right? Self-timer jam will lock up the whole thing.
Basically, all you need to do is get inside a free it up. You shouldn't even need to remove the shutter from the bellows. I'm not specifically familiar with that model, but the usual arrangement is a few grub screws around the focusing element (I'm assuming front-element focusing) that hold the front of the lens assembly together. Loosen but don't remove those, lift off the bezel around the front element, then unscrew the element itself. Marking position at inifinty before you do so is a good ide, but you'll still need to collimate afterwards. At this point you should see a locking ring. Remove that, lift off the front plate of the shutter, and you're in.
Basically, all you need to do is get inside a free it up. You shouldn't even need to remove the shutter from the bellows. I'm not specifically familiar with that model, but the usual arrangement is a few grub screws around the focusing element (I'm assuming front-element focusing) that hold the front of the lens assembly together. Loosen but don't remove those, lift off the bezel around the front element, then unscrew the element itself. Marking position at inifinty before you do so is a good ide, but you'll still need to collimate afterwards. At this point you should see a locking ring. Remove that, lift off the front plate of the shutter, and you're in.
ray*j*gun
Veteran
Yes pilot Prontor shutter.... I should have noted that. The shutter stuck befor I tried the self timer.... I have no idea what possessed me to do that duh!!!
ray*j*gun
Veteran
Looks like im in..... what do you suggest for the lube and clean?
citizen99
Well-known
[EDIT: some duplication here of info posted above since I started writing this.]
You don't mention any difficulty in turning the focussing helicoid; if that's OK then at least you don't have to worry about hardened grease, which Agfas of that age often have. (If it is hardened, you would need to 'soak' it in ***gentle*** heat to loosen it. Then clean off and re-lubricate sparingly with fresh grease. This was described in more detail quite recently in another thread - can't find it just at the moment).
Assuming that's all right, set to infinity, remove the focussing ring by loosening the 3 tiny grub screws, mark the position of the front cell before unscrewing it, and count the number and fractions of turns before the helicoid comes out. Note that helicoids usually have more than one start position (my Agfa Record III certainly did).
You're likely to need a lens wrench, if the lens cell housings have the slots for one, or the 'rubber bung' type of gripper if they don't.
In any case, unless the shutter turns out to require only the most light-touch, non-intrusive, cleaning, you'll probably need to remove it from the body - here you'll need the lens wrench to undo the shutter retaining nut. The shutter orientation is fixed by a tiny peg that engages a slot or hole in the lens standard.
With luck, you might just need to gently clean the blades in situ. (NB never force operation of the aperture blades when wetted by the cleaning solution!)
If re-lubrication of the shutter internals is required, then to do it properly some dismantling would be needed. That's a subject in its own right; details can be found by searching on line. Only watch-type oil should be used on the pivots, for example; I use Moebius 8000. A small ampule should last you for years.
For what it's worth, this was the Prontor SV on my Record III .
You don't mention any difficulty in turning the focussing helicoid; if that's OK then at least you don't have to worry about hardened grease, which Agfas of that age often have. (If it is hardened, you would need to 'soak' it in ***gentle*** heat to loosen it. Then clean off and re-lubricate sparingly with fresh grease. This was described in more detail quite recently in another thread - can't find it just at the moment).
Assuming that's all right, set to infinity, remove the focussing ring by loosening the 3 tiny grub screws, mark the position of the front cell before unscrewing it, and count the number and fractions of turns before the helicoid comes out. Note that helicoids usually have more than one start position (my Agfa Record III certainly did).
You're likely to need a lens wrench, if the lens cell housings have the slots for one, or the 'rubber bung' type of gripper if they don't.
In any case, unless the shutter turns out to require only the most light-touch, non-intrusive, cleaning, you'll probably need to remove it from the body - here you'll need the lens wrench to undo the shutter retaining nut. The shutter orientation is fixed by a tiny peg that engages a slot or hole in the lens standard.
With luck, you might just need to gently clean the blades in situ. (NB never force operation of the aperture blades when wetted by the cleaning solution!)
If re-lubrication of the shutter internals is required, then to do it properly some dismantling would be needed. That's a subject in its own right; details can be found by searching on line. Only watch-type oil should be used on the pivots, for example; I use Moebius 8000. A small ampule should last you for years.
For what it's worth, this was the Prontor SV on my Record III .
02Pilot
Malcontent
I use Ronsonol for cleaning. As Citizen99 noted, if you think it needs a flushing out, you will want to remove it from the bellows, but that's not difficult if you have a spanner. Prontors prefer to run dry, but in the event they won't work properly dry (and you've cleaned them twice just to make sure it isn't hidden dirt) a tiny drop of watch or gun oil on the pins of the gears. I use Breakfree CLP, which is a synthetic gun lube.
ray*j*gun
Veteran
Hey guys ...Thanks I got it done!!!! and I learned a trick on how to reset the lens focus. I used strips of Scotch Tape (magic tape) which stayed in place and was a snap to refocus the lens.
I hope the shutter doesn't jam again as I cleaned but did not lube the mech. I also read they are supposed to run dry.
R
I hope the shutter doesn't jam again as I cleaned but did not lube the mech. I also read they are supposed to run dry.
R
graywolf
Well-known
I would definitely not lube it, the parts are all made to run without lubrication, much like the low speed escapements on mechanical SLRs.
Well, that is, and is not, true.
As I understand it, the Pronto/Prontor shutters came from the factory unlubed. But that was because they were cheap shutters for cheap snapshot cameras, and the factory figured they would last five years or so in that use (10 rolls a year or less). If it was heavily used, the shutter is probably worn out; if not worn out, a CLA using modern synthetic lubricants is the way to go, if you plan to use it much.
farlymac
PF McFarland
The only shutters I've ever worked on that require lubrication are the Synchro-Compurs (there is a lube chart showing specific locations, and what types of lube to use). All the others were designed to run dry all the time. I have brought worn out escapements back to life with a tiny amount on the shaft ends, but that is only a temporary fix, as they will seize up again sooner or later. Lubricant inside a shutter is just glue for all the dust that gets in through the lever openings. Most likely Ray's problem was dirt in the escapement gears, or helical lube between the blades, or a combination of both.
PF
graywolf
Well-known
So you squirt some lighter fluid in shutter and call it a CLA?
Me, I completely disassemble the shutter clean it thoroughly, reassemble it lubing all pivot points with synthetic watch oil, all sliding points with synthetic grease, check that everything works properly and check the timing at all speeds, adjusting if needed --should be within 1/6 stop at all speeds. Then I clean the glass and reassemble the lens. I go through the rangefinder, if so equipped, the same way. I then clean the whole camera, replacing damaged covers. The camera should work like a new one. That is what I mean when I say I have CLA'd a camera.
In honesty, one should mention how long ago that was done, as more than 5 years ago it may need to be redone (although, with modern synthetic lubes it may last maybe 10 years if the camera is kept clean and dry).
If I claimed to have restored it, it would also have the fit and finish repaired so it looks new or better than new.
Unfortunately, my health is such that I have not done anything like that in awhile. Steady hands, good eyesight, and the ability to concentrate is required (pretty much gone now); plus, some knowledge, proper tools, and a lot of practice.
Me, I completely disassemble the shutter clean it thoroughly, reassemble it lubing all pivot points with synthetic watch oil, all sliding points with synthetic grease, check that everything works properly and check the timing at all speeds, adjusting if needed --should be within 1/6 stop at all speeds. Then I clean the glass and reassemble the lens. I go through the rangefinder, if so equipped, the same way. I then clean the whole camera, replacing damaged covers. The camera should work like a new one. That is what I mean when I say I have CLA'd a camera.
In honesty, one should mention how long ago that was done, as more than 5 years ago it may need to be redone (although, with modern synthetic lubes it may last maybe 10 years if the camera is kept clean and dry).
If I claimed to have restored it, it would also have the fit and finish repaired so it looks new or better than new.
Unfortunately, my health is such that I have not done anything like that in awhile. Steady hands, good eyesight, and the ability to concentrate is required (pretty much gone now); plus, some knowledge, proper tools, and a lot of practice.
oftheherd
Veteran
The Ibsor shutter I worked on required a very small amount of lithium grease on the circular ring.